Items to avoid and WHY(semi-guide)

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alsowikk

Senior Member

07-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terchio View Post
If an item is situational, it's hardly an 'item to avoid.' You need it to be universally pointless to the point that no matter the character, you just wasted that item slot. The chalice is a great item. Unless you decide to get a banshee's (some get it for just about everyone...), or maybe a frozen heart, or even a caster, as Archangel's staff would be a more viable option, or a hero with no mana. However, DPS characters can use the crud out of it, as they typically avoid the mana items, and it's a cheap solution. I would say Philosopher's Stone, for one, is more valuable than the chalice.

An item is only as gosu as its dirtiest usage. And as such, 'Zerker Greaves are viable simply because of how cheap they are, Warmog's is viable because there is no item that comes close to either the HP or HP regen of it, Hextech Gunblade is an option for someone who wants to close out enemies with bigger burst, or has little other source of damage, and Phantom Dancer is good on ANY DPS that needs more attack and movement speed.

Olaf, for one, uses Zerker's extremely well, as he has little magic damage, his ult stops all crowd control anyway, he gets enough HP commonly that armor is only kinda 'there,' and he has a fairly reliable slow, plus he gets a ton of dmg out of it while not boosted by his passive. I would fit DPS Mundo here as well with his natural crowd control resistance, and Malphite with his attack damage boost active, though he may need cleanse to make that work.

Warmog's is an EXCEPTIONAL addition to any tank, but notably Rammus, as with cooldown reduction boosts he may last forever with his 150 armor/MR spammed, Malphite with his commonly high armor, plus usually gets mana items with defense, either Banshee's or Frozen Heart, and also great on Sion, whose passive reduces damage and every kill he gets boosts HP from the Warmog's and from Enrage.

Hextech Gunblade is an extremely surprising item on weaker heroes, like support. Soraka with Hextech will often kill an enemy simply because he thinks he has another 3 minutes of survival time to go, but Hextech has the power to change that. Makes good use of her Harass. Janna is another one similar to that, and she works EXTREMELY well with the hybrid aspect of the item. So does Nidalee, though she doesn't get much on the spell vamp. I'm considering trying this on a Warwick hybrid, as his Q spell would heal massive amounts if it had some spell vamp and some cooldown reduction, as well as AP.

Phantom Dancer is quite good on Jax and Tryndamere, as mentioned, but so many DPS characters have trouble catching up to other heroes, and don't have amazing Sheen capabilities to warrant getting Triforce, the 4k item you have to horde gold to accomplish. With better attack speed, crit, and move speed, sometimes this is all a DPS really wants. Not to mention that dodge helps the Nimbleness (I think?) mastery proc more often.

I could go on, but I'm sick of it. Point is that all of the items are as they are because they are deemed 'balanced' to the point that someone can't overtake the game with item abuse. If it were made so that any moron could wear the item advantageously, then it would be an item that would be overpowered, because there are always those that use an item better than others.

Also, How did Malady make the list, but not the Sword of the Divine? It doesn't even have lifesteal... Overall, Attack speed is just a means to complete a strat, and if it doesn't work for yours, it doesn't mean it's a fail concept. Sometimes MIXING attack speed and damage actually turns out to be a good thing...

Ok I'll go through this lists 1 for 1(since you make very good points). Beserker greaves just never seem to add up. You can't get that and the unique cc reduction and the other boots all give greater surviability then beserker gives damage. I admit it can have uses but it's so situational that I can only recomend it to a fed carry against no one with cc.

The warmog's part is that it just doesn't give enough base hp or regen to justify the costs in my eyes(although I'll move it to the situational tier). My problem with it is that it takes far to long to get for the effect(you could stack sunfires almost as much health and more amour and dps for the costs). It also takes far to long in my eyes to build it. By the time you get to it the enemy will have a massive amount of gold to spend on dps items or worse they got bloodrzer.

About the gunblade, I can sort of understand heimer getting good use out of it since he can farm up so easily, but Janna and Nidalee? They both have extremely limitted buggets most of the time(nidalee has trouble killing in the actual teamfight and janna is support). For the amount of money you spent you almost could have gotten a trinity force or a group of smaller items. It has mediocre stats for a high costs and I just can't see where it can be used as anything more then a luxury item. Although I'm sure their is some strat I don't know and I'm a moron for it

EDIT: Am I being condescending? I'm getting downrated here but I don't really know why

About Phantom dancers, I'll admit it you're right. I didn't think of any characters who had the need of all the stats it has besides Jax and Tyr but I will say for carries it is a good item. I just once again hate on attack speed by itself(if I didn't make it clear it is a good item to use after getting you attack damage). It also costs 3.9 K gold so I will have to revise the section.

Sword of the divine...I honestly forgot this item existed(sorry). Malady is on their due to the fact that it is unneficient and that for 600 extra gold you can get an item that is much better for you and your team.

I never mean to say that attack speed is useless(it justs isn't worth it on it's own) just that the nature of most engagements means that you can't get the full use out of it with the amount of running around and the stuns you may get hit with. Not to mention ranged characters have travel time on projectiles which can make it so they only have a shot or two based off travel time alone. Attack speed is fine when it's useed to help attack damage, it just shouldn't be your staple.


EDIT: I screwed up the math on warmog's(sorry everybody) and it is effecient however it isn't being moved out of the very situational tier because you need to rush it and have decent farm for it to justify it's costs


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alsowikk

Senior Member

07-17-2010

Ok I'm sorry about the phantom dancer part, I don't normally play dps so I kind of thought they were a bit more expensive then they are. I still consider them situational to the point of being on the list(but just BARELY) because they aren't great unless you have damage to back them up.


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xathil

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Senior Member

07-17-2010

sometimes.. it isnt about breaking even or anything like that. i play rammus (and kogmaw. the only two i play) and frankly, warmog might not be the most efficient item on rammus but the regen + health is what MAKES a tank. and the fact i dont have 3 separate items in my inventory to take up space means i have space for other stuff. typically once i hit my sunfire, i get warmogs. the PARTS are efficient. upgrading TO warmogs .. less so but a hero with just parts in his inv will get outclassed when he cant upgrade anymore. plus items that carry only the stats you need are more important than efficiency. what i think you are missing is if the item will get you where you need to be. be it from giving enough damage on a tank to farm minons to get your next item (sunfire) or give you plenty of hp and regen to tank so you arent feeding (warmogs). sure. its more efficient for me to carry 3 giants belts, and 6 regrowth pendants to get the same stats, but 9 items dont fit in my inventory. 2 do and gives me inventory space to pick up other stuff. efficiency is based on gold for stats. that i get. but what you havent listed is the fact it takes up 1 inventory slot for 1 good base item (eg giants belt or regrowth pendant) and upgrading to the others is simply LESS efficient.

and just to recrunch your numbers for you. i'd say split warmogs cost down into its hp and hpr5 parts. calculate the cost for the hp side. (770hp = 160 (warmog )+ 610 (base items = 1585/2.59gold/hp) and the hpr5 side (30 hp/5 = 15 (warmog) + 15 (regrowth pendant 450 @30g/hpr5))
1100 for 160hp + 15hpr5. assuming your put the cost of hpr5 the same as buying a second regrowth. you pay 650 for 160hp. which is bad. since you pay 4.06 gold/hp. but if you reverse it,
160hp@ 2.59 gold = 414.4. 15hpr5 is then costing you 600ish. or a 30% markup on regen. really when you look at it that way, warmog's is an awesome item even at base cost since you cant get more than 6x15hpr5 to begin with unless you build regrowth pendants into something else. the fact that it SCALES is more important than the efficiency. the way i see it, warmogs as an upgrade (1100 gold) gets split into 414.4 gold for 160hp, 450 gold for 15hpr5, then 236 for up to 450hp AND 62.5hpr5. which btw works out to be worth 1165 gold worth of hp, and another 1875 gold worth of hpr5. so im seeing 3040 worth of stats for 236 gold + a bunch of minion/hero kills. where do i think warmogs breaks even? 236 gold = X*(3.6*2.59+0.5*30). thats 236gold =X*(9.324 + 15)... or about 10 kills. warmogs caps at what? not 36hp and 5hpr from the bonuses? and im pretty sure you can manage 10 kills after you get warmogs.

im not sure what people are smoking when they say warmogs is good but not cost efficient. the way i see it, its ultra efficient. not sure what you are smokin when you say you cant even break even.

EDIT ( forgot to mention. when you DO farm it up. even 60 or so regen makes a tank pretty godly for pushing. especially if its rammus. i can solo tower push, tremors it up, powerball out when i see incoming enemies have plenty of hp to towerdive again)


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alsowikk

Senior Member

07-18-2010

Ok I think I messed up the math on warmog's(sorry!). I admit I'm a moron and will only put in a quick note about it being an item to rush or to ignore. Sorry everyone!


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Celerity

Senior Member

07-18-2010

I pretty much have to disagree with you about Wit's End being so situational. Let's make some comparisons:

Last Whisper - 2k gold, 40AS, 10AD, 40% Penetration
Nashor's Tooth - 2.8k gold, 50AS, 55AP, 25% CDR
Wit's End - 2.2k gold, 40AS, 30MR, (roughly) 30AD

Now, of course it doesn't increase your AD directly for skills and things like that, but it should be between 20-35 extra damage per hit unless they're oom or a ninja. I think any of these 3 could be better depending on the situation, but Wit's End is actually the LEAST situational of the 3, since it just gives you nice stats without stuff you might not need like AP and armor pen. The mana drain is just a nice bonus.

Obviously all AS items are situational, but I'm just saying. You didn't put the Tooth up there and it's probably the most situational of the 3. I don't like AS items being on your list at all, since sometimes you really want AS, and whatever cheap means you can use to get it will be best.

That said, it's a good guide for newer players. I'm sure many new players overrate the items you listed greatly.


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alsowikk

Senior Member

07-18-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celerity View Post
I pretty much have to disagree with you about Wit's End being so situational. Let's make some comparisons:

Last Whisper - 2k gold, 40AS, 10AD, 40% Penetration
Nashor's Tooth - 2.8k gold, 50AS, 55AP, 25% CDR
Wit's End - 2.2k gold, 40AS, 30MR, (roughly) 30AD

Now, of course it doesn't increase your AD directly for skills and things like that, but it should be between 20-35 extra damage per hit unless they're oom or a ninja. I think any of these 3 could be better depending on the situation, but Wit's End is actually the LEAST situational of the 3, since it just gives you nice stats without stuff you might not need like AP and armor pen. The mana drain is just a nice bonus.

Obviously all AS items are situational, but I'm just saying. You didn't put the Tooth up there and it's probably the most situational of the 3. I don't like AS items being on your list at all, since sometimes you really want AS, and whatever cheap means you can use to get it will be best.

That said, it's a good guide for newer players. I'm sure many new players overrate the items you listed greatly.
Ok first and foremost I will add nashors tooth to the list(I honestly forgot it excisted since I haven't seen it in forever). Secondly I think you're right on the Wit's End. I've been trying to make the guide to help newer players learn to avoid mistakes they often make. Stacking attack speed without any damage items is the most common mistake(I see it in ranked even). The hope was to give a good idea of items that aren't worth it most of the time(as I noted in the intro EVERY item can be good in a specific situation). I'm sorry that I keep on coming off as meaning attack speed is useless(IT's NOT). I know and agree with what you mean on the getting attack speed.(am I still coming off as saying it's worthless, I just think it should back attack damage items not the other way around)


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Temlam

Senior Member

07-18-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by xathil View Post
sometimes.. it isnt about breaking even or anything like that. i play rammus (and kogmaw. the only two i play) and frankly, warmog might not be the most efficient item on rammus but the regen + health is what MAKES a tank. and the fact i dont have 3 separate items in my inventory to take up space means i have space for other stuff. typically once i hit my sunfire, i get warmogs. the PARTS are efficient. upgrading TO warmogs .. less so but a hero with just parts in his inv will get outclassed when he cant upgrade anymore. plus items that carry only the stats you need are more important than efficiency. what i think you are missing is if the item will get you where you need to be. be it from giving enough damage on a tank to farm minons to get your next item (sunfire) or give you plenty of hp and regen to tank so you arent feeding (warmogs). sure. its more efficient for me to carry 3 giants belts, and 6 regrowth pendants to get the same stats, but 9 items dont fit in my inventory. 2 do and gives me inventory space to pick up other stuff. efficiency is based on gold for stats. that i get. but what you havent listed is the fact it takes up 1 inventory slot for 1 good base item (eg giants belt or regrowth pendant) and upgrading to the others is simply LESS efficient.

and just to recrunch your numbers for you. i'd say split warmogs cost down into its hp and hpr5 parts. calculate the cost for the hp side. (770hp = 160 (warmog )+ 610 (base items = 1585/2.59gold/hp) and the hpr5 side (30 hp/5 = 15 (warmog) + 15 (regrowth pendant 450 @30g/hpr5))
1100 for 160hp + 15hpr5. assuming your put the cost of hpr5 the same as buying a second regrowth. you pay 650 for 160hp. which is bad. since you pay 4.06 gold/hp. but if you reverse it,
160hp@ 2.59 gold = 414.4. 15hpr5 is then costing you 600ish. or a 30% markup on regen. really when you look at it that way, warmog's is an awesome item even at base cost since you cant get more than 6x15hpr5 to begin with unless you build regrowth pendants into something else. the fact that it SCALES is more important than the efficiency. the way i see it, warmogs as an upgrade (1100 gold) gets split into 414.4 gold for 160hp, 450 gold for 15hpr5, then 236 for up to 450hp AND 62.5hpr5. which btw works out to be worth 1165 gold worth of hp, and another 1875 gold worth of hpr5. so im seeing 3040 worth of stats for 236 gold + a bunch of minion/hero kills. where do i think warmogs breaks even? 236 gold = X*(3.6*2.59+0.5*30). thats 236gold =X*(9.324 + 15)... or about 10 kills. warmogs caps at what? not 36hp and 5hpr from the bonuses? and im pretty sure you can manage 10 kills after you get warmogs.

im not sure what people are smoking when they say warmogs is good but not cost efficient. the way i see it, its ultra efficient. not sure what you are smokin when you say you cant even break even.

EDIT ( forgot to mention. when you DO farm it up. even 60 or so regen makes a tank pretty godly for pushing. especially if its rammus. i can solo tower push, tremors it up, powerball out when i see incoming enemies have plenty of hp to towerdive again)
i made a much simpler post that got completely ignored about warmogs

it shows that technically a fully stacked warmogs is actually a loss of 14 gold as far as health goes, but that 18.5 effective HP per second more than makes up for it heh.

fully stacked warmogs is 92 health regen too. I find it odd how many people go around saying 60 all the time becaus of what the bonus is (I assume you just meant practical application in game, when it isnt fully built though, but others think it actually caps at the bonus)

Especially why it's situational is for non-tanks, simply because olaf does extremely well I find with an early warmogs and using it I usually get at least 6-8 kills after (i get it as a first item so i usually have it just after the first tower goes down hehe)
ANd farming minions with him is so simple by going back and forth with his Q.

I will admit, I cannot read a **** thing you have written and have no idea if it's mathematically sound, but thank you for not being one of those people that points to a spreadsheet and goes "does not break even, worthless item, total ****" I wonder how many of them even know fully stacked you lose 14 gold for 92.5 health regen/5.
and average game is ~ 14000, so maybe they should look at the nice small number of wasting 00.1% of their gold


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alsowikk

Senior Member

07-18-2010

bump(cause I ran into a malady and zeker yi who REALLY needs this guide)


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nekrataali

Senior Member

07-19-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by alsowikk View Post


Sword of the divine: Since the Jax nerfs this isn't nessecary to use everytime you see Jax...and so goes away the real reason to use it. The passive sucks since it comes out to roughly 25 damage per hit. And while it can be used to harass it just isn't worth the investment. The active is a good way to take down towers, but once again...do you really want to shell out htis much gold just for a tower killing item? I just cannot recomend this to anyone ever.

Better option: Starks Fervor: The armor reduction alone will outweight sword of the divine's passive and the aoe lifesteal aura will give you alot of longevity.
SotD completely shuts down Jax, period. If you're the carry on the team, this item is cheap enough to buy because you will down jax before he can do anything.

Second about this item: the active is amazing. Given the fact that you can ignore dodge, this item is worth at least considering if the other team has ninja tabi/phantom dancer/dodge runes/etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alsowikk View Post

Last whisper: I'm sure you know the drill by now, attack speed isn't that good overall.The 40% armour pen is pretty good...so why is it so situational? Because it is 40% of their armour AFTER their armor reduction. Like if they have 100 armour then it's like you dragged them down to 60. But the effect shrinks as their armour is lower. Like 50 armour will only take them to 30 armour and so on, So against tank heavy teams it's good, but against a regular team I can't recomend it. If your a heavy tower pusher then yes it can be good(and is). This is NOT a bad item, it just isn't the go to item for most situations.

Better option: Yanmu's ghostblade, builds out of a brutalizer(great item for it's costs) and an avarice blade(meh item but it can refund some of it's costs). Also Yanmu's ghost blade has a flat armour reduction which allows you to go to town on the squishies(who should be your main target). Ghostblade also has a great active that increases your move speed and your attack speed(every little bit helps).


When to get: Against a tank or armor stacking team it works just fine. Generally not recomendded though due to the fact most dps should be attacking the tanks.
LW is really cheap for what it does and works with Ghostblade. I almost prefer it over Madred's against a tank-heavy team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alsowikk View Post

Phantom dancer: A good item for very specific characters and builds. I'm a broken record by now, but the attack speed is decent at best. The movement speed is actually very good since it makes you much faster then most of your enemies. The dodge it has will let you last a bit longer, and who doesn't want some crit chance The problem is it's a VERY expensive item and will take a lot of time to make. It works very well with certain champions or after you've completed some attack damage items, but I wouldn't make it a standby item unless you already have attack damage.

Better option: None really, it builds out of zeal so you could get two zeals and then make phantom dancers or something like that. A ghostblade would be like a cheaper version of the phantom dancer(and yes I do love the ghostblade)

When to get it: After you're main item build on a carry who has trouble chasing(although frozen mallet would work here to)or when you're Jax or Tyrdamere.
It's a late-game item, especially when the other team has some ridiculous melee dps carry like Tryn or Yi.

Good post though, those were the only items i disagreed with.


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ThatKuhlKid

Senior Member

07-19-2010

Blood razor does 4% of health, not 8% unless you are an ulted shaco...


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