Manamune on Blitzcrank

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Seņor Pancho

Senior Member

01-16-2012

the only time I get a manamune on blitz is when I managed to defend a node for a good 5-7 min, and I have close to 2500$ to spend, AND my team is doing good.

since my starting items are usually a red+blue crystal + boots, the manamune is even cheaper to complete, and I can start working on the sheen, then phage, then 1 tank item, complete boots 2, complete trinity, get a second tank item.

no matter what you do, NEVER start with a ****ing tear. to go even further, I'd say you should never have a tear in your inventory. just keep the blue crystal and the long sword, then go straight manamune if you see an opportunity, if not, **** it, get a sheen + phage.


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Kiddalee

Senior Member

01-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealWolf M View Post
Its not whether or not he can charge it, as a simple 35 casts makes its mana efficient which anyone can manage, any champion.
Thanks for this info. I'd been wondering how charged my Tear needs to be before it's helpful. I'd prefer to get tanky items that synergize with my Tear item than the item alone. Getting an early Archangel's, especially, can cost too many deaths.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

01-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exsnypre View Post
A "Quick" Triforce? That doesn't even make sense. It's double the cost of Manamune.

I never said "Quick". I said "Early". In both cases, the term is relative and does make sense, assuming an applicable point of reference which I did not explicitly state. Perhaps I should have been more clear.

If I skipped the tear and invested the 975 gold towards Tri-Force, I would have it earlier than if I had worked towards Manamune. Or, spending that 975 gold towards Glacial Shroud to obtain the CDR earlier than if I had not.

Will you complete Tri-Force before Tear assuming dedicated upgrade investment? No. My point is that Tri-Force, and Shroud are in my build for reasons mostly centered around their utility. Tri-Force helps my Power Fist hit that much harder, allow me to move and attack faster, boosting my survivability through two mediums (mana, HP), and slow on-hit. Shroud improves my capacity to support my team with more CC over time. The sooner I build these, the sooner I receive these bonuses.

If I obtain these items 975 gold later, that's 975 gold longer I have to wait to gain those passive bonuses. I'll have the damage and mana from Manamune, however, in my opinion that only helps me, not my team. At least, it doesn't help my team as much as the other two items would.

I never said you couldn't build Manamune after or during the completion of those items. I'm just arguing in favor of being the most helpful to my team as soon as possible. However once I have them, do I want to invest in something mostly offensive and situationally defensive, or go straight for my Odyn's Veil? That all depends on the game.

Is Manamune worth building over other damage items if you've skipped the tear as an early purchase to complete at least Sheen and Glacial Shroud first and foremost? Or, do you go for another raw damage item that has other bonuses as well (Crit, Attack Speed, etc.) outside of pure mana? I don't deny that Blitz's passive is fantastic, but at that point in the game, is it worth relying that heavily on, or do you get (persistent) survivability through other means? Is it worth rushing Tear over working towards Sheen as fast as possible, when it's arguably the most effective?


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ProSauce VT

Senior Member

01-18-2012

Triforce is adding 30AD to your Powerfist so your Powerfist hits for 60 extra damage. The Sheen proc doesn't get doubled and will proc when you use any ability, Powerfist is just being convenient. In fact if you want to maximize your sheen damage you would rocket grab then auto attack a bit then Powerfist so you get 2 procs instead of 1 in a 4 second duration.

Also his Overdrive ability gives up to 62% AS so extra AD from Manamune is not a bad thing unless you seriously are going to just run around waiting for Powerfist to be back up without auto-attacking.

I suppose you could argue that Blitz job is to just be a disruptor and should only build around that but in that case you should just play Amumu who can do the same thing with 40% CDR and still deal a good amount of damage.


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jars

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Senior Member

01-18-2012

it's worth noting manamune charges twice as fast as AA


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CyrisAeon

Member

01-18-2012

I've been very pleased with starting with a tear, then going for some more standard tank/dps items before looping back to finish the Manamune. It gives me something I want on Blitz (big mana pool) and something I didn't realize I wanted (AD scaling off mana.) Combo it with Sheen (Trinity optional lategame) Frozen Heart and some other tanky/DPS items, and you're in a great place.


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

01-18-2012

I came here a tear user. I always go tear with a mid or late game manamune.

I may have been swayed for the trinity force. I'm at least going to try it


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

01-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vastatio Tactics View Post
Triforce is adding 30AD to your Powerfist so your Powerfist hits for 60 extra damage. The Sheen proc doesn't get doubled and will proc when you use any ability, Powerfist is just being convenient. In fact if you want to maximize your sheen damage you would rocket grab then auto attack a bit then Powerfist so you get 2 procs instead of 1 in a 4 second duration.

Also his Overdrive ability gives up to 62% AS so extra AD from Manamune is not a bad thing unless you seriously are going to just run around waiting for Powerfist to be back up without auto-attacking.

I suppose you could argue that Blitz job is to just be a disruptor and should only build around that but in that case you should just play Amumu who can do the same thing with 40% CDR and still deal a good amount of damage.

I understand how Sheen works, and you're absolutely right about how to maximize it, assuming your target doesn't get away before you follow up with the fist. Thankfully Flash isn't as prevalent as it used to be.

I never said Manamune, or AD for that matter, was a bad thing. It's absolutely a good thing for the 2.0 AD ratio on Powerfist, and Blitz's amazing steroid. It's a matter of when you get it, which is really dictated entirely on the game, and if what it brings to the table (mana and AD, only) is most valuable at that time. However, if I'm playing Blitz, I'm playing him for his prowess in disruption, and his ability to bring enemies to my team/tower... not necessarily DPS.

Which is why I don't consider Amumu an equal alternative. He has a stun, and his ultimate AoE snare. His stun throws him at the enemy, and is entirely dependent on his team following up. Blitz has his rocket grab, which lets him stay with his teammates and bring the kill to them, a knockup on a 3-4 second cooldown, and an ultimate with a silence. That's more disruption than the mummy, whom after his ultimate only has his skillshot stun.

I'm mostly curious about whether or not it's worth it to invest in that tear out of the gate, or go straight for the Sheen. I would think the Sheen is going to provide more use at that first windmill fight, and since you skipped the early tear, it's no longer worth getting Manamune for the raw damage, since I can get other damage items that add more to fill that slot. However, there's no arguing that Manamune is cheap for the damage it provides, and Blitzcrank can most certainly use the mana. I just don't know if all that mana is as useful as having other AD-based bonuses such as Critical Strike chance, on-hit slows, and/or armor penetration.

EDIT: Armor penetration, now that I mention it is actually an interesting point of discussion as well, as it will provide a % damage increase. Will an item, such as Youmuu's Ghostblade provide more damage output based on the armor penetration increase. Or, to evaluate a similarly priced item, Last Whisper (though obviously this is entirely dependent on the amount of armor on the enemy.


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Mandius

Member

01-19-2012

Getting it first is very important as the longer you have it the better it becomes, you want to be able to charge it as much as possible even before the game even starts.
http://www.dominatedominion.com/foru...php?f=20&t=382
This is a quick write up of roughly why this works on Blitz now your build may differ but the end result is that manamune is not only for the damage but the insane shield your passive gives you once a min.


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ProSauce VT

Senior Member

01-19-2012

What damage items could you get that would add more than Manamune on Blitzcrank? With few exceptions a Frozen Heart is all but mandatory on him. Most every item you'd want to run on him has mana. Now concerning your quote

Quote:
since you skipped the early tear, it's no longer worth getting Manamune for the raw damage, since I can get other damage items that add more to fill that slot.
Lets say you get Manamune fairly late. You already have a Trinity Force and a Frozen Heart. You are currently level 14 with no mana runes or masteries for the sake of simplicity. So you have currently 820 base mana + 250 from Trinity + 500 from Frozen = 1570 mana. You build a Manamune which adds 350 mana making your mana pool = 1920. The amount of AD you just got from building Manamune with no charges is 20 AD from the item itself +2% max mana ( 38.4) = 58.4 AD from one item that cost you 2110 and that is with no charges. By the way for comparison sake this would be almost the same as if you bought a long sword (10 AD) for 415 and a B.F. Sword (45 AD) for 1650 = 2065g spent and 55 AD gained with no other perks. So is Manamune worth it even late game? It is assuming you have a Frozen Heart and a Sheen (or the items of the equivalent) on Blitzcrank.

Now concerning the argument of Sheen or Tear first. The reason I brought up auto-attacking is Sheen has 0 effect on your auto-attacking prowess and your Powerfist (Rocket Grab gets a 20 damage boost to it) . Yes it adds damage to your overall throughput by adding 66.16 more damage but only every 2 seconds with good or perhaps I should say convenient ability usage. Tear also has 0 effect on your auto-attacking prowess and your Powerfist initially however, it adds 100 more mana meaning +50 to your shield and allows you to start charging it at the beginning making it possible to have 50 more mana when you reach WM meaning essentially 75 more hp assuming your shield is considered the same as being extra HP.
You also are able to start with level 1 boots making the jump to level 2 boots much easier.

Ultimately I suppose it is a play-style preference however some things to think about.

1. If your like me and place no emphasis and/or importance on the early game relative to the mid-end game then starting Tear certainly follows along that mindset.

2. Starting Sheen may give you a significant damage boost but it is at the cost of less survivability.

3.Starting Sheen does not allow you to grab level 1 boots which may or may not be a deciding factor.

4. Starting Tear gives you the option of speed building Manamune thus allowing you to gain stacks significantly faster (This is how I achieve 1000 bonus mana at the 15 min mark) since your auto-attacks will also charge it as well as give you a nice passive increase to your AD that will only grow.

The only reason I brought up the Amumu reference was to point out that if you intend to build most champs with only tank items and little to no damage then they become much too dependent on there abilities to have a significant impact and the fact that Powerfist has no base damage can be more a handicap then a boon in some builds. Amumu can be built full tank because of his tears/high base damage abilities.

Also regarding Amumu since I love the little guy and feel hes highly underestimated, his stun is 2 seconds and at 40% CDR has a 4.8 second CD at rank 5. Conversely once you are engaged in a team fight your Rocket Grab becomes less useful as a cc and acts more as a finisher to catch retreating people. Your Powerfist does do knock-ups which is nice but depends on you being in melee range of intended target in order to use it which can be a liability and also is a cc only equal to 1 second. Your Static Field active is only good for interrupting channels (and dealing damage of course). Finally Amumu's Bandage Toss is slightly faster and has a 100 more range on it and while his ult CD is certainly long it also can literally win games. Also his passive makes him ungodly when paired with Leblanc/Fizz type champs. I'm not intending to start an argument of whom is better since there both strong in there own right, I'm simply saying each champion can be the better one depending on the situation/team comp.

Edit: Since Mandius posted as I was typing this. Mandius I do not agree with your guide at all however, that's not really surprising as I very rarely agree with anyone's guides.