Sejuani and female champs

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Loc

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I've yet to have time to read those articles but I shall do so when I get the chance.

Also.. don't make me get into how Leona's heels actually are a paragon of function and classy design!

Anywhoozle, funny thing is, when I was doing a bit of work on Sejuani, we made an effort to make sure she didn't look dainty. In the art spotlight you're looking at a very action-y pose which may make her diminish because that boar is just so ready to throttle you.

That being said, yes, often in the video game industry, and the entertainment industry, there is a "standardization" of female form. I'm as guilty of it as any other artist when designing. Leona is a tall curvy lady which in my mind is "idealized". We're artists, we like "ideal" and sometimes default to it. (REMEMBER! I'm keeping "Ideal" in QUOTES! "Ideal" is not an "Ideal" term for what I'm "Ideally" trying to explain) That isn't to say that our lexicon is or should be limited to a particular scope, but let's be honest, a lot of natural human tendency which is often hardwired into us makes us gravitate towards particular biological attributes. I'm not trying to defend that gravitation, but I am saying that we are many times inexorably drawn to it... no art pun intended.

Let's also consider something. Readability. In the game, the characters are fairly small, nyez? So, we do often I believe have to make sure we're making sure to make sure that the figure is readable as a girl or guy. How do we do this? Well, proportion, accentuation, exaggeration, etc. Want the feminine form to read in a game? Welp, guess what, it might have to be a bit more famine and/or stylized than usual to read at the proper distance and keep readable when moving. That's just making sure we cover the basics of simple silhouette recognition. If we make her too broad, you might mistake Sejuani for a male, that'd be, ya know, not what we want.

Now, that said, and I may be at bit too full of microwave mashed potatoes at this point, but I do have certain issues with certain champs and their body types. I do flinch here and there when I consider the logistics that certain clothing might entail. However, as an artist, as a gamer, I'm looking for something that's rewarding to my eye. Sometimes that might be a dynamic silhouette, sometimes maybe the nuanced movement of a character, possibly the hardwired biological aspect, or any other pleasing imagery. As a gamer and as an artist, I want a visual reward. That's a lot of what gaming is and art for that matter. Engagement -> Reward.

Particularly though, at least speaking for myself, I also want to know how that armor or lack thereof functions! But, what is the trade off? Do I think Sejuani might need to make a trip to Sports Chalet and get some heavy winter gear? Possibly.. BUT! I also want her to be wearing something more interesting than a Columbia snowboarding jacket and I also want her to read clearly when I play her. That's a whole lot in the equation.

There's trade-offs to everything, and sometimes we don't even know those trade-offs on a conscious level. If you saw Sejuani in a head to toe outfit, or heavily armor-clad, or maybe beefier, well, that actually presents a slew of other visual problems to work out. We then have problems with whether we could tell her gender or not. The boar (Let's take get a betting game going to see if you can guess the boar's name) might indicate, given another armor or outfit situation, that she's a guy. Thickening her up, while addressing how a chick could wield such a weapon comes at a risk of her looking like a male also. We wanted her to be fit and vicious. Adding particular types of clothing, mass, armor, etc might detract from that... also! You haven't seen all her skins yet! Maybe you'll find something cool in there! =D

Personally? I like the more "reasonably" clad gals, but hey, that's why I gravitate towards champs like Leona. But heck, while Sejuani has her own visual style, and unique challenges, I am not opposed to her being taken in the direction she has been. I think our goal is to provide a rewarding experience, sometimes we have to suspend our otherwise pesky disbelief and roll with it. Will we push limits in the future? Yes. Will we also work within pre-established motifs, structures, archetypes and the tendencies for the unconscious mind to latch onto particular tropes as long as we find the situation appropriate? Yes.

Regardless, I'm not sure if this is all making any sense. I'm pretty tired. Also, ya know. Mashed potatoes. Either way, I enjoy these discussions and I'd like to keep having them. There's a lot we go through over here when we design champs artistically and believe me, nothing you're saying hasn't been discussed or not thought over. In the end, we're having fun, and we hope you are too!
Holy potatoes, Batman, a red post!

Well, I appreciate the very thorough response from such a prominent (and relevant!) Riot employee. And I do understand a number of the issues beyond my point of gender (look at me, assuming a purely binary gender :P) equality that you guys have to deal with. I want to emphasize again that I really adore your character designs and everything about the visual aspects of your game. This was just something that'd been bugging me for a while, and I just wanted to vent on it/expose the issue to the community. I'm glad to know it's at least something in the back of your minds as you're convening. Keep making pretty things, you awesome people you!

For the record, Defender Leona is right up there as one of my favorite skins. I think you guys did an amazing job on that one.

Enjoy your potatoes, good sir.


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cyTO

Senior Member

01-12-2012

I don't understand these double standards and people wanting unappealing looking female champions how many guys especially those playing LoL look like any male champion. I'm sure we all have six packs of steel and alpha male traits? I rather have nice looking male and female champs than unappealing looking ones. Don't blame Riot these traits were placed into our minds since we were born it is what society finds attractive.


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Kirintao

Senior Member

01-12-2012

****ed if most of the reactions werent exactly what the dude was talking about


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Reivur

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ******Lesbian View Post
except its always overexaggerated. Female adults always have the same body types and males always have pecs + a 6 pack(unless you're Gragas)

I'm all for sexy champs but they're way too overused. Those body types aren't regular
I guess what I don't understand is why would they be regular?
They're representatives of either the best City-States have to offer to join the League, or Legends themselves. Why would they be plain?


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TheRuns

Senior Member

01-12-2012

look at Kayle and how she was received before they made a skin with her helmet off
unless you read the lore, kayle was usually thought to be a guy


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IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

01-12-2012
3 of 21 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loc View Post
Holy potatoes, Batman, a red post!

Well, I appreciate the very thorough response from such a prominent (and relevant!) Riot employee. And I do understand a number of the issues beyond my point of gender (look at me, assuming a purely binary gender :P) equality that you guys have to deal with. I want to emphasize again that I really adore your character designs and everything about the visual aspects of your game. This was just something that'd been bugging me for a while, and I just wanted to vent on it/expose the issue to the community. I'm glad to know it's at least something in the back of your minds as you're convening. Keep making pretty things, you awesome people you!

For the record, Defender Leona is right up there as one of my favorite skins. I think you guys did an amazing job on that one.

Enjoy your potatoes, good sir.
By the by, I think you raise excellent points in your post! This is a big interest of mine honestly. I want to figure out how we can push the envelope and how we can still hit familiar notes. Thank you for the feedback as we will keep it in mind!

I'm always interested to see what our players have to say in regards to visual design. We're always evolving and I want to know how that evolution is progressing.

I don't at all consider what you've posted to be any sort of complaint, I see it as honest critique and I thank you for it.


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Sherrif

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Recruiter

01-12-2012

OMG its the apocalypse! A female Tryndamere! A STEP TOO FAR!


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Captain Jaguar

Senior Member

01-12-2012

This thread is getting overly redundant.


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IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

01-12-2012
4 of 21 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Jaguar View Post
This thread is getting overly redundant.
Threading is indeed redundant as it's a fairly repetitive task.


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davin

Senior User Researcher

01-12-2012
5 of 21 Riot Posts

Very happy to see IronStylus weigh in on this. Since I'm not one of our art guys, I can't really speak to it from a "this is what we make" perspective, but I personally prefer female characters to wear things that match what they do rather than just be "skinny lady skimpy clothes" all the time.

I feel pretty strongly about this and am rather happy that our game has a good number of female characters who break out of traditional "male gaze mold" (Karma, Poppy, Leona, Tristana, Riven, and Shyvana are pretty good examples). Leona is my favorite example of this, as she's a strong female character who really looks like she's meant for battle.