Nidalee - Fear the Wild! (AP/Lich Bane guide)

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gaysensei9

Junior Member

07-05-2010

nidal is not wildebeest but cat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dang u so dum

cat build is as folow:

1 dorns sword
2 speed shoes
1 tmat for xtra op win rofl


i warn u, if u run dis, enemes will hate u but u can sey get on ur level like freek rofl lol lmalmao


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EnderA

Senior Member

07-06-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanorodd View Post
Leaguecraft's connectivity is unreliable in my experience; there are many times when I cannot access a Leaguecraft guide, it loads infinitely with no result except for my browser to tell me they're unavailable or experiencing high traffic.
Ouch. Yeah, Leaguecraft has server issues. Kind of reminds me of a certain game we all play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerlegen View Post
you've clearly never seen what a tank spec nidalee can do >.>'

the words "impossible to kill" come to mind. the way Mundo can be immortal. Or Mordekaiser.

I'm not a regular Nidalee player but trust me, the only Nidalee's that ever gave problems were the well played tanky ones. She has solid base capabilities for dealing hurt, you don't need to go balls to the wall with it, imo. So building her tanky and leaving just one or two items towards the damage output actually turns out to be really effective.

What's the point of a burst when I, as say, Morgana, can burst you for your whole life before your combo is over?
What is it about Nidalee that makes her a good tank? None of her skills add to her tankiness. I understand that her Cougar Form's skills do a good amount of damage without AP, and have poor AP ratios, but her Heal and Javelin scale amazingly with AP. From what I can tell, by that logic, you could/should play Sivir, Twitch or Soraka as a tank. I'm also curious what items you would buy.

There's a difference between needing a defensive item or two (which most everyone does) and going full-on tank.


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Elyselle

Junior Member

07-06-2010

I don't think you realize this.

But a hybrid build will do a lot higher damage than an AP build.

Also you waste way too much gold on Doran's, stop that. and Rylai should be a higher priority then Lichbane, especially when Lichbane's effect is comparable/inferior to Sheen's until you get much higher AP.

Also i highly disagree with maxing spear before heal, heal is basically your key human ability, where spear is extremely limited when playing anyone decent, basically it should be heal > spear > bushwhack. Also if you're using spear more then heal early on, you're doing something seriously wrong or you're playing some really bad players.

[EDIT] A tank build is a bit unorthadox, it relies heavily on Nidalee's dodge and uses anti spell items and +health +armor, usual tanky stuff.

It's not that great of a build honestly but its slightly amusing


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EnderA

Senior Member

07-06-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elyselle View Post
I don't think you realize this.

But a hybrid build will do a lot higher damage than an AP build.

Also you waste way too much gold on Doran's, stop that. and Rylai should be a higher priority then Lichbane, especially when Lichbane's effect is comparable/inferior to Sheen's until you get much higher AP.

Also i highly disagree with maxing spear before heal, heal is basically your key human ability, where spear is extremely limited when playing anyone decent, basically it should be heal > spear > bushwhack. Also if you're using spear more then heal early on, you're doing something seriously wrong or you're playing some really bad players.
Thanks for the feedback.

How would a hybrid build do more damage? With Lich Bane, I'm adding AP in damage to each skill/attack. Once you finish your Lich Bane, you'll have nearly 200 AP: 10-20 from Doran's', 93 from Guinsoo's, 80 from Lich Bane = 183-193 damage. Sheen's effect gives 80% of 50-109 damage = 40-88 damage (lvl 1 - lvl 18).

Doran's' are always extremely efficient items. If the build didn't benefit so well from all the things it offers, I'd never recommend more than 1, if that. But you can use every part of it, especially early game. There are only 2 disadvantages to Doran's: unupgradability and space. If you have the space for it, and can use it efficiently, they're worth it. They're not mandatory, but they're worth the small investment. You can even sell them back later if you need the space. However, a 3rd is practically never a good idea. You're going to need that slot very soon. I've found that 1-2 is the sweet spot for Doran's' items, unless you're mad rushing a specific item.

I can definitely understand getting Rylai's before Lich Bane. I think that's debatable and situational. Rylai's gives survivability/crowd control (great utility), and Lich Bane gives damage (very good, at that.) If you need survivability/crowd control, definitely get Rylai's first, if you want DPS, get Lich Bane first. Depends on team compositions, and the game situation.

I used to go Heal > Javelin > Bushwhack, but I felt it left me with a useless Javelin. If you don't level it up till later, it's a dead skill till then. The heal, on the other hand, is still quite useful even with a mere 2 levels, particularly because AP boosts it so well. Primal Surge levels worse than Kayle's Divine Blessing, and I don't max that out first. (I usually alternate between it and the nuke, with the nuke first, unless I'm being heavily harassed.) You should be spamming BOTH skills. As I clarify in the guide, however, if you're getting creamed by harassment, by all means max out Primal Surge first. But as they say, the best defense is a good offense. If all you're doing is surging, you're not getting yourself anywhere.


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Destabilizator

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Senior Member

07-06-2010

I feel I could add my 2 cents here:
What I go is
1) MIDalee!
2) Doran's Ring + Mana Pot (why to buy health pot when you can heal yourself + atkspd, providing you have MANA)
3) Shoes 1
4) Guinsoo's (blasting first, when you complete it, your farming ability just skyrocketed)
5) Mercurys (90% of the time is the best choice)
6) Rylai's (giant's belt first, if you are doing so-so, only surv item you really need, not to mention your skills AS WELL AS TRAPS will be slowing)
6.5) Might wanna add Banshee Veil here
7) Lich's Bane
8) Zhonya's

+ you can afford pretty expensive items, because of your farming ability and with just a little piece of brain you are almost ungankable (trapping all entrances behind you)
+ level up Primal Surge first! gives you health + nifty atkspd which you need to kill minions fast enough at mid, not to mention the moment you get cougar form, you also have high rank in Swipe! Also, Javelin Toss is pretty expensive to use, and your enemy in lane will be aware of it. It's much easier to snipe ppl hugging tower etc. from max range later in game, basically: when you need it, you'll have it
+ assists are for healing too!
+ late game don't go in first, snipe from afar, heal, when all ults are burned, hop in and shred em! (and laugh at epic moments when highlandered Yi runs with 50HP through the bush and get clamped by trap )
+ run CLEANSE!
+ range of Swipe is much further than you'd expected


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EnderA

Senior Member

07-06-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebonclaw View Post
First, Leaguecraft sucks, which kind of makes your guide suck, because it directly reduces accessability. In one swift act you have effectively separated the guide from the discussion of it, and made yourself look very lazy at the same time.

What I get from this - Buy AP Stuff, Play Smart. Well, great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanorodd View Post
Leaguecraft's connectivity is unreliable in my experience; there are many times when I cannot access a Leaguecraft guide, it loads infinitely with no result except for my browser to tell me they're unavailable or experiencing high traffic.
I have ported the guide over from leaguecraft now. It doesn't flow as well, but hey, now all the lazy people will read it, and if leaguecraft goes down, it's still accessible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destabilizator View Post
I feel I could add my 2 cents here:

<...>

+ you can afford pretty expensive items, because of your farming ability and with just a little piece of brain you are almost ungankable (trapping all entrances behind you)
+ level up Primal Surge first! gives you health + nifty atkspd which you need to kill minions fast enough at mid, not to mention the moment you get cougar form, you also have high rank in Swipe! Also, Javelin Toss is pretty expensive to use, and your enemy in lane will be aware of it. It's much easier to snipe ppl hugging tower etc. from max range later in game, basically: when you need it, you'll have it
+ assists are for healing too!
+ late game don't go in first, snipe from afar, heal, when all ults are burned, hop in and shred em! (and laugh at epic moments when highlandered Yi runs with 50HP through the bush and get clamped by trap )
+ run CLEANSE!
+ range of Swipe is much further than you'd expected
Agree:
-Your item build isn't much different from mine.
-Nidalee is a fairly good farmer.
-Cleanse is crucial on Nidalee, particularly with the current metagame, and the large number of ultimates that it cancels.
-Javelin makes for good harassment (at all stages, though.)

Counterpoints:
-You can't always solo mid, especially if you're solo queuing.
-While you do farm fairly well, you should never depend on farming up a storm. Often that will come at your team's expense, and many games end much before then.
-Primal Surge is good for resilience and pushing (hence why I get 2 levels of it early,) but you need the offensive threat of Javelin, otherwise they aren't pressured at a range. Primal Surge is still useful with even a mere 2 ranks in it. If you're getting harassed like a hot girl in a ghetto, then Primal Surge is definitely more important. Otherwise, at least alternate between Javelin and Primal Surge.


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The Promise

Member

07-06-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderA View Post
Thanks for the feedback.

How would a hybrid build do more damage? With Lich Bane, I'm adding AP in damage to each skill/attack. Once you finish your Lich Bane, you'll have nearly 200 AP: 10-20 from Doran's', 93 from Guinsoo's, 80 from Lich Bane = 183-193 damage. Sheen's effect gives 80% of 50-109 damage = 40-88 damage (lvl 1 - lvl 18).
I don't have the numbers crunched because, frankly, it would be a lot of math to compare AP to an AD/AP Hybrid build. Maybe I will crunch the numbers some time. Anyway a hybrid build could do more damage (again, I don't have the math) for a few reasons.

1. Your auto attacks actually do something against Champions without needing your Sheen/Lichbane/Trinity buff up. The way I build the AD/AP hybrid involves a lot of AS just because of the items you buy to maximize effectiveness. I don't stack it. YOu can get a lot of uptime with auto attacks with a lot of AS because you have a higher chance to proc the Phage from Trinity (in a given time frame), or because you have Lizard. You can hit fairly hard with 50 ArP and Lizard, and they can't get away.

2. You get some AP from Ginsoo's and Trinity/Sheen. You end up with around 120 AP after you sell the Ring and have Ginsoo's + Trinity. Your Jav hits plenty hard, your Heal does fairly well, and your Cougar abilities get some scaling. Don't hink that Hybrid builds ignore AP, quite the opposite. They take advantage of AP but also AD to enhance Nidalee's whole toolkit.

3. Takedown. As AD it hurts, especially once you have Trinity and are getting 130% bonus AD. Again, I don't have the math, but I would wager that it would take a lot of AP to get Takedown as AP hitting harder that Takedown as AD. It may never happen with any realistic item build, but again, I don't have math.

The reason why I prefer a Hybrid build is simple: it enhances every part of Nidalee's toolkit. AP skips auto-attack and Takedown (ignoring Lich Bane of course). I have always seen AP as a bit of a "cart before the horse" situation. Instead of building to enhance the Champion, you are enhancing the Champion through a build. It may not make a lot of sense but think about it. That is not to say that AP is bad, not at all. It is actually quite good (don't anyone pull HotShot out of their ass, yes I know how he plays, but he isn't God), I just think that a Hybrid build has, in an all around situation, a tiny leg-up on AP.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderA View Post
I used to go Heal > Javelin > Bushwhack, but I felt it left me with a useless Javelin. If you don't level it up till later, it's a dead skill till then. The heal, on the other hand, is still quite useful even with a mere 2 levels, particularly because AP boosts it so well. Primal Surge levels worse than Kayle's Divine Blessing, and I don't max that out first. (I usually alternate between it and the nuke, with the nuke first, unless I'm being heavily harassed.) You should be spamming BOTH skills. As I clarify in the guide, however, if you're getting creamed by harassment, by all means max out Primal Surge first. But as they say, the best defense is a good offense. If all you're doing is surging, you're not getting yourself anywhere.
You may feel like you have a useless Javelin, and that's because you do. It's true that it's real power comes out at ranks 4 and 5. However, both Primal Surge and Javelin Toss should be maxed by level 13. If you are soloing, which you should be, you should be 13 before 8 of the other 9 players in the game (unless there and junglers). As such, Jav should be maxed relatively quickly compared to other players, and the fact that Primal Surge is just so much more beneficial during the laning and roaming phases than Javelin (How often goes someone escape a gank with enough HP to survive a Javelin from a solo Nidalee, even if it isn't maxed? Not very often.), makes it an obvious choice for a level 9 maxed skill.


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dieinbasra

Senior Member

07-06-2010

Decent guide, enough for a +1. I think the build order is a little out of order in a crucial way, but you do a good job listing her best items

AP is the best way to build nidalee at the moment. She gets a whopping 1.6 ratio on spear at max range, and a 1.2 ratio on her heal. Those are nuts. Besides take down and her heal(which you can use to make someone with even better scaling then you more powerful), she has 0 scaling with attack damage, and Takedown doesn't even scale that well. She does really well with early armor pen, but her late game has to be AP. Once you have a Lichbane, you have a 1:1 ratio on Takedown, and I can't think of anyone who can proc lichbane as much as nidalee while benifiting from it.

On nidalee I always rush boots. With early merc treads she has crazy survivability and chasing power. I find no matter what the items, if you can stay next to someone while you have red or blue, it's a near garenteed kill. Most of my early game I spend farming(which nida can do so well) for guinsoo's, I feel way more poweful with an early guinsoo's then a sheen. You need AP for lichbane so you can't rush that, and after you buy sheen you're kinda at an awkward point where your next buy seems far off.

I like the idea of double dorans though. That would give you great staying power in the early-mid game. I'd still do guinsoo's right after though.

You should have also touched on how important leveling on Nida is. If you can get to 11 while the highest on their team is 9 or just hit 10, or if you can get to 16 before the majority of thier team, you will absolutely tear people apart.

Anyway thanks for the insightful guide, and hope you consider my advice. It probably boils down to play style, but you should give early boots/guinsoo's a try imo.


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Kittifer

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Senior Member

07-06-2010

I tend to do okay during the laning phase with just one point in Javelin. Reason being it does enough damage to harrass during the first 3 levels (if you're careful about how far you're standing). Yes, there will be a period of total uselessness when you're standing there throwing toothpicks, but it's not a terribly long time. The moment you hit 6 with Cougar Form, you get the damage right back. It is closed range, but I find that Nidalee's damage output at this level is more than what most people can handle. One of the problems I have with this plan is that I'm heavily dependent on a competent lane partner for the first 5 levels. I can heal and buff, but he needs to be smart about when to attack or defend.

Recommending 2 Doran's Ring is a bit excessive since the money is better off elsewhere. The stats on Doran's Ring is good for early game, but it becomes almost negligible very quickly. The only time I will even consider taking a second Ring is if I'm really starved for gold (thanks to idiot lane partner who keeps getting the two of us killed). One is good enough in most cases.

Also, I hardly ever buy wards as Nidalee (unless it's for Baron or Dragon). If you spam them everywhere you go, it's almost impossible to avoid walking into one. You made good recommendations on where to put them, so I honestly don't think visibility is an issue. There are plenty of spots where people absolutely have to pass through in order to switch lanes or set up a gank. Only other thing I'd add about traps is putting them in popular Fiddle, Warwick, Shaco, etc. hiding spots. Like in the wraith camps for example.

For the people who say that AD Nidalee is the way to go...I honestly think that you're just giving yourself a handicap. Nidalee isn't the best champion to use when you want to stand and auto-attack, which is about the only thing you can do if you go pure AD. Primal Surge helps with IAS buff, but as mentioned, that's better off going on the Ashe, Tristana, or Jax.

Hybrid Nidalee works out pretty well. I used to play her hybrid until the changes on Primal Surge. I find that I need more AP to make that worthwhile of a heal, so I go pure AP now (with the exception of Rageblade). That's a personal decision, but as mentioned, most Nidalees can't initiate. I hang back and heal the wounded while throwing Javelins (which gains extra damage from me staying in the back) until all the CCs are gone. THEN I jump in as Cougar and rip some faces.

Over all, I think this is a decent guide. +1 worthy.


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TheJugernaut

Junior Member

07-06-2010

Hey I did your build and it works like a charm

i went 3-0 all with 15 + kills and no more then 6 deaths. Thanks for this post