Chogath is Top-Tier (Again): The Definitive Guide by 5HITCOMBO

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Vrtra Theory

Member

06-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5HITCOMBO View Post
Thanks for running those numbers! The thing to remember about Chogath is that his Feast gives you more HP as it levels, and I'm not sure exactly how much. I know with the Leviathan build I hit 5k consistently, and the only two hp items you get with that build are Levi and Warmog's.
Just a note on this: Cho really doesn't have amazing base health. 470 + 80 per level, or 1910 at level 18. Even Master Yi beats that number. Of course, once he gets a full six stacks, he blows everyone else out of the water at 2810 (1910 + 150 * 6).

With 20 Levi stacks and full charged Warmog it's 4960 health, plus 65-98 from runes, giving (just barely) 5k HP. So I can see that, especially if you happen to toss in a Rylai's later.

I'll test this out in-game later, because the website is so outdated that Cho's champion page might just be wrong. If so, I'll re-run my numbers.


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wildfire393

Senior Member

06-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrtra Theory View Post
Anyway, I started crunching some numbers afterwards to "prove" how crappy Warmog's is, but what I came up with makes Warmog's look OK.

Code:
Base Stats         0 Gold  2810 HP    84 AR   30 MR    5170/3653 EHP
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Guardian/BV     5315 Gold  3260 HP   152 AR  125 MR    8215/7335 EHP
Warmog/Aegis    5060 Gold  4300 HP   114 AR   69 MR    9202/7267 EHP
2xBelt/GA       4820 Gold  3670 HP   152 AR   68 MR    9248/6165 EHP
Thornmail/BV    4715 Gold  3260 HP   184 AR   87 MR    9258/6096 EHP
Aegis/BV        4640 Gold  3530 HP   114 AR  126 MR    7554/7977 EHP
GA/Aegis        4525 Gold  3080 HP   182 AR  107 MR    8685/6375 EHP
2xBelt/Aegis    4145 Gold  3940 HP   114 AR   69 MR    8431/6658 EHP
2xBelt + Aegis is over 900 under Warmogg + Aegis. If you throw on a third Belt, you end up about 200 over Warmogg + Aegis, but you have pretty much identical EHP. And this is without having to farm up your Warmogg's.


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5HATCOMBO

Senior Member

06-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfire393 View Post
2xBelt + Aegis is over 900 under Warmogg + Aegis. If you throw on a third Belt, you end up about 200 over Warmogg + Aegis, but you have pretty much identical EHP. And this is without having to farm up your Warmogg's.
It's also not taking into account the fact that you regenerate HP, or Chogath's passive, or the fact that my build isn't actually using Aegis, but instead a specialized item like Thornmail/Banshee's/GA/FoN.

Look, I know you think Warmog's is bad on every character, but I'm telling you that it's solid on Cho, regardless of its effectiveness per gold invested. It has the huge benefit of being ONE item slot.

I don't really want to argue about this because I sure as hell am not getting an Aegis and three Belts instead of one Warmog's.


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5HATCOMBO

Senior Member

06-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampZero View Post
I tried out your build in like 4 games, since we already had identical rune pages, you can take everything here directly. Here's some feedback:

1. I tried all kinds of lanes (1v1, 2v1, 2v2) with a Bead of Regen (its like half a regrowth, ties into spirit visage, or warden mail->Randuin.
It was PLENTY. You don't need regrowth so if you finally decide to stop making Warmogs, just get this one, a ward, and maybe a pot of health/mana.

2. Don't take warmogs. It's not a taste issue or a situation issue. It is demonstrably less powerful than a number of other combinations in literally all situations, farmed or unfarmed.

3a. I tried to replace it with Randuins. It wasn't too good. No actually it sucked. Useless over-regen, kinda hard to use activated ability (At this point in the game, you have 3 gamechanging abilities to cast plus you're squishy enough to have to pay attention. Randuins is v. hard to use in those circumstances)

3b. Tried replacing it with GA (took cloth armor instead of bead/regrowth at start, with a health pot and wards) It was plenty, and GA worked REALLY well. It was a v. hard game so the easy buildup was a blessing.

4. Nice idea on stopping passive at level 2 and going with scream after ulti. It works p. good.

5. I didn't try mobility. Went either with swiftness or merc treads. Both were fine.


Most important note: Given your talents, masteries, runes, and 1st item of choice (regrowth) you are playing him really over-defensibly, if I understood your first post right. You could go naked on the lane and still afford to harass with spikes as Cho'gath. With regrowth you should be constantly in their face. Hell, you should be hitting their range minions while they're attacking you. You'll literally regen more than they can hit you for.
Thanks for the feedback! I really appreciate it.

Here are my thoughts on the important issues:

1) I have about 220 wins on Cho right now, and I've tried a lot of things on him before coming to the conclusion that Regen Pendant was the strongest. Against lanes that include Ryze, Pantheon, Katarina, Karthus, Mordekaiser, Ezrael and Ashe the bead isn't enough, even with pots, because they will harass or burst you so hard that you'll have to tower hug for a wave and regen with rupture no matter what build you take. With bead+pots, you can only do this once or twice. It also builds into Warmogs, which I staunchy defend as a good item on Cho, and I will also address that.

2) The reason I like Warmog's so much is that if you die with Cho, you lose a lot of HP. His base HP isn't very high even with masteries and runes (+200 base hp, to round up). If he dies, he's a squishy caster that needs 3-6 minutes to recover, and this severely gimps his effectiveness. With Warmog's, this gimp is mitigated, and it often prevents it from happening in the first place.

3a) I've never thought Randuin's Omen was particularly good on anyone but Rammus.

3b) Guardian's is usually my next item after Warmogs, and the reason for that is you're not really scared of champions midgame (combinations of champions, maybe). Going Chainmail into GA will make 100% sure that you survive the midgame unscathed, but late game it's more of a challenge, because your team won't always stick around to fight if you get hit really hard by burst. Getting the Warmog's first allows it to charge so when you need it lategame it's full, and on top of that the GA benefits from Warmog's (more HP when you revive) and Warmog's benefits from GA (more armor for your massive HP/regen).

4) Good to hear! I don't think you have the mana regen to hit with scream, and every time I'd want a scream at this stage I'd pretty much rather have a rupture.

5) My personal standard is Mob Boots for the lane control--in fights you won't have to move very fast or very far, because your whole team should be sticking to you, and when you're not in a fight the extra movespeed to control golem and get into position for ganks is invaluable. I only really get Merc Treads if they have more than 3 sources of targeted silence/slow/stun/root, if someone is stacking Sunfire Capes, or if there's a Teemo. In the Teemo case, if they're good and the mushrooms are really becoming a pain, I'll get a FoN after Guardian.

Most important note!
Ah, that's a good point, I should probably clear this up in the OP if it was unclear. You're 100% correct--there's no reason to play passively as Cho. You take 0/21/9 with Cleanse/Ghost specifically so you can play really aggressively. You never, ever want to overextend, and your aggression should be in short, calculated bursts. Play tight-aggressive and force them to make mistakes. If you're trying to rupture them, they have to either run to avoid it or risk getting hit with the knockup slow nuke + auto-attacks with the +30 from Vorpal.

You should absolutely be farming every creep in every wave at all times in a solo lane, and if you're in a 2v2 let your partner know that it's their responsibility to get last hits in because if you see one close, you're taking it. Try to leave some for them.

I think I covered this correctly, though. Your goals, in order are:

1) Don't die
2) Farm every creep
3) Harass super hard

Again, thanks for the feedback! Don't feel constrained to this guide, though. If skipping Warmog's works for you, by all means, skip it and go straight GA. I'm a fan of it because it's a HUGE lategame boost, but if your games tend to end earlier, between 25-35 minutes, it's probably worthwhile to go straight GA.


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Gunflame

Senior Member

06-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampZero View Post
3a. I tried to replace it with Randuins. It wasn't too good. No actually it sucked. Useless over-regen, kinda hard to use activated ability (At this point in the game, you have 3 gamechanging abilities to cast plus you're squishy enough to have to pay attention. Randuins is v. hard to use in those circumstances)
If you really felt Randuim is hard to use... you should never ever play a tank, randuim is a 1 button I win item. No targetting at all and a really nice radius. 1 button press is like 1/2 a sec at most.... yea AT MOST... it only takes a brain and some memory (people forget about most active parts of the items. The main uses for its active are:
a) Reduce damage done by enemy AS/AD carries
b) Help your team run away
c) Help your team pursue an enemy.


Another point:
- Regrowth Pendant is by far the best starting item on Chogath... I never never EVER get warmogs... In fact most of the time I either convert the regrowth pendant to Force of nature or I just sell it late game because it doesn't transform into anything good, it still allows you to be very aggresive during laning phase because of the massive regen it gives coupled with Chogath's passive

Cho is VERY VERY enemy dependant and team dependant. That's why you dont really have many "cookie cutter" builds with cho. These are some of my preferred item configurations:

Note 1: This is is in order of my personal preference

Note 2: Item depending on Team/Enemy/Game means
that if you are doing really good and everything is easy you could get AP based, if you need to buff your team, you could get an aura item, if you need to boost your armor, get an armor item. Basically it changes according to your enemy and your team. You have to adapt it to your game.


General build
- Always regrowth pendant first.... sell it later if you dont need to transform it into anything.
- Boots Mobility, Mercury or Ninja
- HP-AP Item
- Defensive item (either Magic Resist or Armor, depending on the enemy)
- AP Item
- Item depending on Team/Enemy/Game 1
- Item depending on Team/Enemy/Game 2

HP-AP items:
- RoA
- Rylai

AP items:
- Deathfire grasp (Buy Kage's Lucky pick early if you are going this way)
- Mejai
- Zhonya

Armor Items:
- Randuim (Buy Turtle shell early if you are going this way).
- Guardian Angel
- Thornmail
- Frozen heart (CDR is really nice).

Magic Resistance Items:
- Banshee's Veil
- Force of Nature

Team support items:
- Abbysal Scepter
- Will of the Ancients
- Aegis

If I'm doing Mundo like (doing what I please) I end up with zomething like this:
- ROA
- Mobility
- Mejai
- Deathfire grasp
- Randuims
- Guardian Angel

This build has a nice 30% CDR build, decent AP (200 AP), good HP and great armor with some MR. It lacks magic resist if the enemy team has epic carries but like I said Chogath is VERY VERY team/enemy dependant and usually he doesnt get to do what he pleases.


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5HATCOMBO

Senior Member

06-30-2010

Your list looks good! I sometimes get regrowth mejais leviathan warmogs guardian in that order. My last item is usually either thornmail, banshee's or FoN. I end up looking like this:


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SwampZero

Senior Member

06-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunflame View Post
QUOTE=SwampZero;1763734]
3a. I tried to replace it with Randuins. It wasn't too good. No actually it sucked. Useless over-regen, kinda hard to use activated ability (At this point in the game, you have 3 gamechanging abilities to cast plus you're squishy enough to have to pay attention. Randuins is v. hard to use in those circumstances)
If you really felt Randuim is hard to use... you should never ever play a tank, randuim is a 1 button I win item. No targetting at all and a really nice radius. takes about 1/2 and all you need to do is choose what to use it for... main uses are:
a) reduce damage done by AS/AD carries
b) Help your team run away
c) help your team pursue an enemy. 1 button press is like 1/2 a sec at most.... yea AT most... it only takes a brain and some memory (people forget about most active parts of the items.


Another point:
- Regrowth Pendant is by far the best starting item on Chogath... I never never EVER get warmogs... In fact most of the time I either convert it to Force of nature or I just sell it late game because it doesnt transform into anything good, but it allows you to be very aggresive during because of the massive regen it gives

Cho is VERY VERY enemy dependant. these are some of my preferred item configurations:

Item depending on Team/Enemy/Game: This means that if you are doing really good and everything is easy you could get AP based, if you need to buff your team, you could get an aura item, if you need to boost your armor, get an armor item. Basically it changes according to your enemy and your team. It should seldomly be the same.

The lists I'm presenting have the items placed in order of my preference

General build
- Boots Mobility, Mercury or Ninja
- HP-AP Item
- Defensive item (either
- AP Item
- Item depending on Team/Enemy/Game 1
- Item depending on Team/Enemy/Game 2

HP-AP items:
- RoA
- Rylai

AP items:
- Deathfire grasp
- Mejai
- Zhonya

Armor Items:
- Randuim
- Guardian Angel
- Thornmail
- Frozen heart

Magic Resistance Items:
- Banshee's Veil
- Force of Nature

Team support items:
- Abbysal Scepter
- Will of the Ancients
- Aegis[/QUOTE]

didnt read but no.


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Gunflame

Senior Member

06-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampZero View Post
didnt read but no.
I try hard not to be aggresive but seriously... what you just said made no sense... "I didnt read it but no". What do you mean by that?

This basically shows why you can't use Randuim... if you just don't have enough brain power to read and comment on a forum post, I find it hard to believe you can play this game in any decent way... Just don't play Cho... you wont be able to do anything with it.


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5HATCOMBO

Senior Member

06-30-2010

I'm not a huge fan of Randuin's because after you rush Zhonya's you won't really have much HP to tank with and Randuin's is a very "stand in the middle of everyone" item. You'll get killed by teams with good burst or chain CC because you better believe they'll focus you first if you try to tank them too early.


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Vernichter

Junior Member

06-30-2010

Recognizing that the original poster's build is not designed to make Cho an early to mid-game tank in teamfights (rushing Zhonya's and having no points in Scream means staying at range if given the option), I am none-the-less surprised that no one has mentioned buying a Glacial Shroud, transitioning long-term to a Frozen Heart. I understand the argument for rushing Zhonya's (especially in comparison to the RoA), but Cho's biggest contribution to teamfights seems to be AoE disruption (coupled with the ability to eat a squishy). With that in mind CDR and mana pool are both very valuable, and the Glacial Shroud provides those along with a nice effective health boost from the armor. Given the price (1675), it seems like an excellent item to follow the Zhonya's and boots.


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