Chogath is Top-Tier (Again): The Definitive Guide by 5HITCOMBO

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wildfire393

Senior Member

06-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5HITCOMBO View Post
Also I generally go Warmog's because I already have the Regen Pendant for it. It's not like I'm spending 3200 outright, I get it in intervals when I bluepill to buy (with wards).

If you don't agree with the Warmog's, by all means, don't get it, but I just find that it's really effective. Randuin's + Spirit Visage might outclass it, though. Maybe I'll try it.

OH! But don't get Sunfire Capes on Cho. You're not the fastest champion in the world and your goal is to instantly remove someone from the fight, not stand and whack them for a period of time.
Agreed, sunfires are generally terrible, but your EHP benefits significantly more from stacking items that give multiple Defensive stats than simply stacking one, particularly when you already get a bonus to that one. Guardian Angel (Armor/MR) + Banshee's Veil (HP/MR) + Aegis of the Legion (All 3) + Randuin's (HP/Armor) > 4x Warmogg's.

Also have you considered something besides a Regrowth starting? I feel like not being able to start with a HP potion or any bonus HP makes you really susceptible to harassment followed closely by burst. Doran's Shield + a HP potion or Rejuv Bead + multiple HP potions (you can also fit a ward in if you go Bead) seems like it could be a better start.


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5HATCOMBO

Senior Member

06-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildfire393 View Post
Agreed, sunfires are generally terrible, but your EHP benefits significantly more from stacking items that give multiple Defensive stats than simply stacking one, particularly when you already get a bonus to that one. Guardian Angel (Armor/MR) + Banshee's Veil (HP/MR) + Aegis of the Legion (All 3) + Randuin's (HP/Armor) > 4x Warmogg's.
The thing is, I just want one item that takes care of my HP/regen and gives me bonuses for farming well, which I usually do (in a 25 minute surrender game Cho usually has ~150 CS).

Also, I would like to make the argument that the effectiveness of HP/5 scales with HP, and with 5k HP, a bonus 92.5hp/5 is pretty big, especially in the ranged rupture-retreat-rupture-advance types of battles you're likely to be engaging in.

But again, you're definitely entitled to your opinion and I know there's a reason you have it, so I appreciate the feedback.

[edit] On the topic of starting items, regen pendant is a solid item. Usually you're not going to get bursted too hard (you should know who to stay away from and it's not like you're going to be trying to auto-attack Garen or something) and even if you do, just tower hug for a bit and score some last hits with rupture/auto-attack. I play really defensively in lane (Goal #1: don't feed) and pretty much wait for feast to get a kill, and I think that regen pendant helps a lot more than doran's shield because it regens faster, and I'm not gonna be taking many creep hits or strong auto-attacks so the armor isn't as good as it sounds. I do like the added HP. But I also like that Regen Pendant builds into Warmog's, because I still maintain that it's a solid item choice on Chogath.

Most people think it's bad because tanks can't farm and good farmers can't spend 3200 on HP. The only other champion I'd even consider it on is Mordekaiser, and even then I'd pretty much rather have a damage item. [/edit]


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wildfire393

Senior Member

06-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5HITCOMBO View Post
The thing is, I just want one item that takes care of my HP/regen and gives me bonuses for farming well, which I usually do (in a 25 minute surrender game Cho usually has ~150 CS).

Also, I would like to make the argument that the effectiveness of HP/5 scales with HP, and with 5k HP, a bonus 92.5hp/5 is pretty big, especially in the ranged rupture-retreat-rupture-advance types of battles you're likely to be engaging in.

But again, you're definitely entitled to your opinion and I know there's a reason you have it, so I appreciate the feedback.

[edit] On the topic of starting items, regen pendant is a solid item. Usually you're not going to get bursted too hard (you should know who to stay away from and it's not like you're going to be trying to auto-attack Garen or something) and even if you do, just tower hug for a bit and score some last hits with rupture/auto-attack. I play really defensively in lane (Goal #1: don't feed) and pretty much wait for feast to get a kill, and I think that regen pendant helps a lot more than doran's shield because it regens faster, and I'm not gonna be taking many creep hits or strong auto-attacks so the armor isn't as good as it sounds. I do like the added HP. But I also like that Regen Pendant builds into Warmog's, because I still maintain that it's a solid item choice on Chogath.

Most people think it's bad because tanks can't farm and good farmers can't spend 3200 on HP. The only other champion I'd even consider it on is Mordekaiser, and even then I'd pretty much rather have a damage item. [/edit]
Warmogg's is pretty terrible on Morde, as HP helps him tank only marginally - remember that he generates a LOT of his own HP with his shield. Adding HP on top of that does... nothing. Adding MR/Armor makes it harder to chew through that shield.

But this is a digression.

Also, HP/5 scales with Armor/MR, as it increases the damage needed to take away each point, while it actually has anti-synergy (or at best, no synergy) with HP as it means each point of regen is restoring a smaller % of your health. If I have 5000 HP, 100/5 means that it takes me 250 seconds to heal full. If I have only 2000 HP, but 5000 EHP through armor/MR, it takes me only 100 seconds to heal full, and it takes just as much damage to take me down to the same level of "not full" as the 5000 HP build.


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5HATCOMBO

Senior Member

06-28-2010

Except against true damage and armor penetration/magic pen, which you end up having to stack HP against anyway. I just think that Warmog's is a natural item for Cho and Omen is not. I won't usually be using its active and the armor bonus isn't as big against any dps with a brutalizer/ghostblade. Either way, you're tanky enough to rupture a melee attacker sticking to you and if you'd die with Warmog's you'd probably still die with Omen.

Again, please feel free to skip Warmogs or put Randuin's Omen in its place when you try this build. I tend to get it almost every game, though.

[edit] I think my main point comes down to the fact that Cho is a siege character, not a run-in-and-tank character, and Warmog's is far more useful in a siege than Randuin's Omen. [/edit]


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wildfire393

Senior Member

06-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5HITCOMBO View Post
Except against true damage and armor penetration/magic pen, which you end up having to stack HP against anyway. I just think that Warmog's is a natural item for Cho and Omen is not. I won't usually be using its active and the armor bonus isn't as big against any dps with a brutalizer/ghostblade. Either way, you're tanky enough to rupture a melee attacker sticking to you and if you'd die with Warmog's you'd probably still die with Omen.

Again, please feel free to skip Warmogs or put Randuin's Omen in its place when you try this build. I tend to get it almost every game, though.
There are only about three sources of True Damage in the game, and Cho is one of them. Yes, if there's an enemy Olaf, consider Health-stacking, but no one else dishes it out on a regular basis (Corki's the other source, but his is based on the amount of damage he actually does, so in effect it's affected by armor).

Also, if they have Brutalizer/Ghostblade, Armor is even more important. The higher your armor is, the less effective each point of Armor Pen is. If they have 50 armor pen, lowering your armor from 50 to 0 is a 33% increase in their damage. Lowering it from 150 to 100 is only a 10% increase in damage.

Also Omen is notable for it's active (try it out sometime, the area of effect is huge, and as you said yourself, you're a close-range nuker, it can keep a team clumped and F'd for your team to rape, or stop someone from getting away/catching you), as well as the 15% CDR, which gives you more Ruptures/Screams/Feasts.


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5HATCOMBO

Senior Member

06-28-2010

I gotcha, I'll try it out, but for now I'm keeping Warmog's in the guide because it's been working for me so far. It's more useful in siege, I feel, and Cho is definitely a siege character.


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Digweedmancer

Junior Member

06-28-2010

I particularly agree with the fact that Chogath should be played like a siege, not a true tank. I think you've got some really good points here.

I don't play Chogath much tho, but 2 questions:

1) What do you think of using Doran's as starting, relying more on Regen from masteries/runes, and taking a more confrontational approach to laning?

2) You didn't really say why Cho is a top-tier Champ as you said in your title. I know it's meant to be a little tongue-in-cheek, but why would you choose Chogath over someone like Kassadin, or Nidalee?


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5HATCOMBO

Senior Member

06-28-2010

Doran's is nice for the 2v1 lane, but to be honest the hp regen helps a lot more because it allows you to get in there and whack minions with auto-attack for the regen. If you take a few hits, you're still good, and you have enough mana to spam rupture pretty much every time it's up if you last hit well. On the other hand, if you open Doran's, you have all the mana in the world but it's a lot more dangerous because champs with doran's shield + pot like Kat just zone you with Shunpo harass and you have a hard time getting last hits in because you don't regen enough hp. Relying on Rupture to last-hit is an inexact science, but farming a wave with auto-attack/vorpal is super easy, and you regen a ton of hp while you're doing it so you can take a few hits when coupled with your defensive masteries and the 14hp/5 from regen pendant.

[edit] Wait, I just realized you might mean Shield--I'm a bigger fan of regen pendant because it builds into Warmogs and I don't have to sell it later, and I really like Warmog's on Cho in spite of all the hate on it. It also helps more against casters. I play pretty confrontational with Cho early but I don't do things that might get me killed if I take too much damage. My lane phase is a lot of well-placed ruptures that make them decide if they want to auto-attack war with me or run and get hit by rupture/2 auto-attacks. Either way, at some point I back off and last hit creeps on the way out for regen. It'd work just as well with shield, but I'm a fan of Warmog's because I really think that you need the insane regen + large HP bonus after you farm it out. If you have a dedicated healer or good support, by all means skip it, but in 9/10 of my games I go for it. In the other 1/10 I grab Rylai's instead. [/edit]

Also I think Chogath is top tier because he has a ranged AoE knockup-slow skillshot nuke, an AoE silence nuke, a ~1k damage nuke, great farm, great lane control, great harass, a ton of HP late game and really good scaling. He plays a different role than Kassadin or Nidalee, if you're looking for an AP off-tank then Cho is in my opinion hands-down the best choice.


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Neryth

Senior Member

06-28-2010

Regrowth Pendant makes Cho incredibly resilient early game vs harassment. HP pots are actually completely unnecessary with Cho's passive + regrowth. I find that if you keep Rupture spam up, you can outlast any lane comp that doesn't have Soraka or Taric and force them to either blue pill or die. If you're good enough at landing Ruptures, your opponents should be dancing around the tower with 300 HP by the time you get your first point of Feast.


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Saavedra

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Senior Member

06-28-2010

Do you build differently if you're the only tank on your team? Or do you consider Cho to be a poor choice for the primary tank role and just pick someone else?


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