Speedy Janna, or support in dominion in general

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SoBeNirvana

Adjudicator

10-07-2011

The problem is that people are trying to play Supports like Supports on Dominion. On Dominion, there is no "Support" class. Basically, each support plays like a different class - Defender, Nuker, or Pusher depending on their individual skill set.

For instance, Janna with heavy AP build and Garrison makes an excellent defender since she can interrupt and nuke captures from the bushes, knock enemies away with monsoon, and easily retreat if she gets overwhelmed.

Soraka with her high AoE and synergy with Hextech Sweeper can either defend or push without fear from stealth assassins.

Taric can roam the middle of the map with a tanky AP build.

Zilean is a great defender since his bombs constantly interrupt captures and he can revive.

And Sona makes a decent ranged hybrid attacker.

They aren't support anymore, they're some other individual class depending on what else they can be built for.

Quote:
Having a Janna instead of a Ryze or <insert strong champion here> just handicaps you in fights.
Ryze's range and mobility are **** compared to Janna's. If Ryze loses a point, he's going to die in the process. If Janna loses a point odds are she got away and can simply retreat for a bit to regroup. Most supports work more like high mobility nukers on Crystal Scar than pure support characters.

Most of the basic mistakes i see support players do is trying to get away with building no damage + Priscilla's Blessing which is stupid.


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SirTimbo

Senior Member

10-07-2011

Supports are good on dom just they have to play differently. Soraka for example will level Q and E since until she gets some AP her W is laughable thanks to the heal reduc. She'll also do incredible damage and up everyones magic damage on that same target.

Karma is great if you're good with her since her kit works if you can get farm and is great for smaller fights of 1 on 1 or 2 on 2.

Zilean is a back capper with his E and can hold off a turret 1 on 1 for a long time. His passive is also huge for your team as bonus xp lets you get your ults sooner and levels sooner. With enough mana and full CDR zilean has a massive perma speed boost and can back cap better than rammus, rammus just defends turrets better.

Janna is a great defender and her passive is great for dom that requires mobility.


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SoBeNirvana

Adjudicator

10-07-2011

Another common mistake I see is attempting to use every support as a back capper (as the common example is given - backdoor Janna), when only Zilean has the mobility and defense to actually pull it off. Most supports are much better at defending a point or pushing a creep wave than trying to backdoor with Priscilla.


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MelloRed

Senior Member

10-07-2011

I've been running a pure tank janna (mercury threads, thornmail, nature's fury, warmonger) with about 10/15 wins with her.

On offense, It usually goes 1 of 2 ways...
Either i get chased for 30 seconds, by 2-3 people and my team caps a point.
Or i get a point while i'm ignored (450 speed without anything else).

And on defense, i let the tower do all the damage (garrison), keeping enemies stunned/slowed/pushed or just hitting. I can usually defend from 2 without issue. difficult to hold 3 though...

And of course, in team battles, AOE stun is huge, as is handing out a BF sword to your AD (teemo, nocturn, ect), and slow anyone who tries to escape. And anytime i go by minions i drop a whirlwind, which get's the occasional point by itself, or at least stalls enemies for a while. The ult does wonders on minion pushes too

The only thing that's really an issue is mana, which i depend on health pick up's for.


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KommunistKevin

Senior Member

10-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abyss Crown View Post
I'd like to take a second and point out InmoniXian's match history. His captures and neutralizes are quite godly. Now while I rarely care about the personal scores in Dominion (because they don't tell you much, everything is situational), I'm looking at the histories of some of the people criticizing Xian, and they're match history is pretty balls. Either they get the majority of their points from kills, or they just do horrible.

Now in all fairness to the criticisms, Xian is level 17, however, I have seen level 17s play better then 30s, because just because you reach an easy level cap doesn't mean you're better then the lower levels. I'm going to try this build out, or at least somewhat, and see how it fairs out. Then again, I'm sure this build he is pointing out is fairly dependent on play style, which I'm sure mine is highly different than his.

Also, what's with all this "heueueue support is bad on Dom". It reminds me of all the "heueeueu Nidalee is bad on Dom". Oh, wait, they're probably the same people. The same people who took lessons from Phreak's spotlights containing Dominion footage and just focused on kills, and not capping/diversions.
Just look at the champions skillsets and you will understand why every support is bad on dom

A champion needs to be balanced, supports are well known for having POWERFUL CC's, POWERFUL DEBUFFS, POWERFUL BUFFS, POWERFUL HEALS

To avoid being overpowered a champion needs to have some downside, kinda like in MTG all the overpowered cards have ridiculous mana costs to play.

Thus supports are typically balanced by high cooldowns and average to mediocre AP ratios. Thus they can perform extremely well with little to no farm since they have powerful abilties.

This is why you have champions that are known as carries and champions that are known as supports. Carries if they get their items, can destroy everything while supports are useless even with a full build. In dom it can be assumed that everyone has the same amount of gold.

Supports are very good on SR because they can give their gold to carries, but not in dom.

AP Carries typically have low cooldowns and/or great ap scaling while AD carries have attackspeed steriods


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Abyss Crown

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Senior Member

10-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by KommunistKevin View Post
Just look at the champions skillsets and you will understand why every support is bad on dom

A champion needs to be balanced, supports are well known for having POWERFUL CC's, POWERFUL DEBUFFS, POWERFUL BUFFS, POWERFUL HEALS

To avoid being overpowered a champion needs to have some downside, kinda like in MTG all the overpowered cards have ridiculous mana costs to play.

Thus supports are typically balanced by high cooldowns and average to mediocre AP ratios. Thus they can perform extremely well with little to no farm since they have powerful abilties.

This is why you have champions that are known as carries and champions that are known as supports. Carries if they get their items, can destroy everything while supports are useless even with a full build. In dom it can be assumed that everyone has the same amount of gold.

Supports are very good on SR because they can give their gold to carries, but not in dom.

AP Carries typically have low cooldowns and/or great ap scaling while AD carries have attackspeed steriods
Actually, you are completely wrong. In fact, what are you even going on about?

First off, let me address this gold garbage you're talking about. Just because the amount of gold a player gains over time naturally is increased, does not mean all players have the same amount of gold at the end of the day. You still get gold for kills and doing the objective. Since fights and obtaining the objective is much more face paced, the minion farming capacity in SR, and the lack of it in Dominion, evens out fine. So I don't know what you're talking about.

Second off, you're STILL talking about supports being bad because they can't fight well against other champions. You're only taking in to account a support being bad on Dominion because they can't faceroll the other team in a fight. And since we're talking about Dominion, I don't know why you're only bringing up that.

Take Nid for example. If built properly, she can easily do two things in Dominion; defend, divert/kite, and backdoor. Those three elements are crucial in Dominion, and you're not taking those in to effect in your argument. You're thinking a champion functions like they do on SR, and if YOU function like you do in SR when playing Dominion, then you're doing it all wrong.

I'll repeat myself. People are viewing Dominion as Team Death Match, which Riot is only encouraging, it seems (i.e. Phreaks' moronic spotlights, and the lack of points you receive for doing the objective compared to killing).


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SoBeNirvana

Adjudicator

10-07-2011

Quote:
Thus supports are typically balanced by high cooldowns and average to mediocre AP ratios. Thus they can perform extremely well with little to no farm since they have powerful abilties.
Most support actually have mediocre to high AP ratios on everything but heals. Janna, Taric, and Zilean's AP ratios are pretty **** good.

The real weakness of supports on Summoner's Rift is mana, which is removed on Dominion. This allows you to build AP to your heart's desire. And the cooldowns for most support's damage spells are not very high at all (see: Soraka, Sona, and Zilean).


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evilsforreals

Member

10-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ActionButlerGO View Post
Support champs take a lot of **** from carry champs on Dominion. There is a lot of "****ing noob, u suk" thrown at you. It's almost as if, if you aren't actively running around the map trying to kill things, you clearly aren't helping.

Never mind that it took at least two enemies to kill me at any given time when I was playing as Moakai last week.

Never mind that I stunned Poppy, shielded you - twice, drew the turret fire, and you STILL couldn't kill Poppy - who was at half health to begin with - when I played Morg today.

Never mind that I actually defend our points and, if I die, it's because there is an enemy left both injured AND not guarding someplace else on the map.

You're right, it's all my fault.


I love you for writing this. I play with sona, so I speed up my team at the windmill, heal and armor buff my allies, while reducing the damage output of the enemy with power chord W, ult to stop three enemies from killing the moron katarina that ult dove them at a quarter health, resulting in my death, and several cute comments from the katarina I just saved. Support as always, is under appreciated.


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rumples

Senior Member

10-07-2011

It's like Ghandi and Rodney Dangerfield had a baby.


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KommunistKevin

Senior Member

10-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abyss Crown View Post
Actually, you are completely wrong. In fact, what are you even going on about?

First off, let me address this gold garbage you're talking about. Just because the amount of gold a player gains over time naturally is increased, does not mean all players have the same amount of gold at the end of the day. You still get gold for kills and doing the objective. Since fights and obtaining the objective is much more face paced, the minion farming capacity in SR, and the lack of it in Dominion, evens out fine. So I don't know what you're talking about.

Second off, you're STILL talking about supports being bad because they can't fight well against other champions. You're only taking in to account a support being bad on Dominion because they can't faceroll the other team in a fight. And since we're talking about Dominion, I don't know why you're only bringing up that.

Take Nid for example. If built properly, she can easily do two things in Dominion; defend, divert/kite, and backdoor. Those three elements are crucial in Dominion, and you're not taking those in to effect in your argument. You're thinking a champion functions like they do on SR, and if YOU function like you do in SR when playing Dominion, then you're doing it all wrong.

I'll repeat myself. People are viewing Dominion as Team Death Match, which Riot is only encouraging, it seems (i.e. Phreaks' moronic spotlights, and the lack of points you receive for doing the objective compared to killing).
Explain how Sona/Janna/Soraka can divert/kite or backdoor.

The moment any of these champions leave the point, if the other team has a stealth champ like evelynn, twitch Sona/Janna/Soraka are dead.

If they have Akali, also instant death.

If a tanky dps comes to your tower, its gone, they will dive you and kill you or send you packing, turrets are extremely weak. If you were Xin Zhao defending against Jax, if Jax even attempted to take the tower, Jax would die 100%. If you were Janna, Jax just pushes with minions and zones you. So Xin Zhao is a better defender than Janna, while also being able to assault towers.

If a teamfight happens with equal numbers on both sides, also instant loss for your team

Sorry but Xin Zhao/Jax/Akali is going to roflstomp Jax/Akali/Janna

Having a support = instaloss of windmill

Killing is the most important since 1 free kill on the other team is a guaranteed windmill

Backdooring doesn't work, just like how it doesn't really work on SR its pretty much pushing without a ward

Hey I have 200 games of dominion, i used to think it was about backdooring, I played rammus/eve/teemo bought priscillas and backdoored nonstop and always got number 1 but yet i lost almost every game because the other team just used the defend 3 strategy. Whatever team gets the windmill wins, simple as that.

Nidalee can do well on dominion, but thats because she is sort of a support carry like Kayle