Tiamat: Why it sucks and how it can be improved

First Riot Post
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Aspartem

Senior Member

09-24-2009

The only problem i've with this item is, that the cleave/AoE range is just ultra small. If they enlarge the AoE-Size of Tiamat everything would be fine.


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Shillen

Senior Member

09-24-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspartem View Post
The only problem i've with this item is, that the cleave/AoE range is just ultra small. If they enlarge the AoE-Size of Tiamat everything would be fine.
Agreed.


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Guinsoo

Game Designer

09-24-2009
1 of 1 Riot Posts

We increased the AoE size recently. Have you tried it in the last patch or so?


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false idol

Senior Member

09-25-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
We increased the AoE size recently. Have you tried it in the last patch or so?
Do you actually take tiamat when you play? if so under what context?" because with its cost/benefit ratio I never find myself wanting to take tiamat, and maybe there is something I am missing but it is just really expensive for what it grants.

the way I see the item is that it is basically a farming tool with a nice early game medley of stats. problem being that the medley isn't much better than the items its built out of, its a dead end item, and its farming capabilities are outshined by the razor.

I get that it is not an endgame item, ergo it is actually half as expensive since you are meant to be selling it back later in the game. the problem is that it is still hard to get it into an early game build without putting your necessary items on the back burner.

people have suggested giving it a higher AoE, which I am not entirely in support of, when I have taken this item just to fiddle with it, the splash damage frequently just softens minions up for my own minions to get the kill rather than getting it myself. What I see being the most beneficial is making it cheaper (and then you get less from selling it obviously) or an alternate build out of other commonly taken early game items. (ex. make it build out of phil. stone, or sheen or what have you)


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Drakonis

Senior Member

09-25-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
We increased the AoE size recently. Have you tried it in the last patch or so?
Make Tiamat this :
Deals bonus damage to target, Surrounding targets get 70% damage from attacks.
make it a requirement for Black Cleaver , put Giant's belt to reduce wielding champion squishness

Keep AoE, then add Cleaver Armor reduction

Make reduction affect only the target damaged by your melee and ranged attacks,( No corki i dont want you to have black cleaver killer powers on your gatling gun) get it working with skills that deal 1 attack instead of making it for multi damage skills


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AviatorAnson

Member

09-26-2009

Ive used Tiamat with Sion, Kassadin, Yi, NUNU, and Taric. Its great for creep farming and if an enemy champ is not paying attention you get free hits on him and he thinks hes getting FF from the creep wave. I also like Tiamat on Taric and Kassadin for extra mana leech. Also a Warmonger, tiamat, sunfire, and malady on NUNU or Sion is quite annoying.


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danielklein

Member

09-26-2009

Does the AoE from Tiamat apply all on hit effects? I mean both innate (mana regen on Taric, MR reduction on Amumu etc) and item-based (Frozen Mallet)? Also, does anyone know what shape the current AoE has? Is it a cone originating from the target, pointing away from the wielder? Or is it simply a circle around the target?

I think one of the bigger problems with Tiamat is that it lacks proper feedback. You're never quite sure how many enemies you got in your AoE and as such you're never quite sure how effective it was as an investment. I have a vague idea for a redo that might help with this (improve perceived usefulness) as well as maybe make the item more useful in more situations.

Instead of doing AoE damage, the new Tiamat would do a percentage of your damage to one additional target. This would be indicated visually by a chain-lightning like effect arcing from your original target to the other target. This secondary target would be selected semi-randomly from available targets in a certain range. Semi-randomly because it would "prefer" champions the way Ryze's ulti currently prefers to bounce to champions. All on-hit effects would proc on that secondary target as well.

The key balancing aspect to this implementation would be the range. To make up for the effect no longer affecting any number of enemies, that range would obviously have to be higher than the current AoE range. On the other hand, it can't be too much since if you always hit a second target in a team fight the item would scale too strongly with your damage output.

The advantages to this I see are as follows:

1) Visual feedback. You see the arc lightning whenever it procs. This allows you to judge the usefulness of the item much better.

2) More useful / suitable in more situations. I haven't seen too many team fights where people were standing very close to each other for a longer time. With a bit of range this version may proc much more often.

3) Introduction of a skill element for the enemy. "Don't stand next to the guy being attacked by someone wielding a Tiamat", kinda similar to Zilean bomb avoidance. Again the visual feedback helps here. If you are standing too close you see the zap hitting you and you know you should stand somewhere else.

What do you guys think? Percentage of damage applied to secondary target and range are the main balancing factors, of course.

(and for what it's worth I agree that the regen is quite useless on it; I'd rather have it do a little more damage instead)


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false idol

Senior Member

09-26-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielklein View Post
Does the AoE from Tiamat apply all on hit effects? I mean both innate (mana regen on Taric, MR reduction on Amumu etc) and item-based (Frozen Mallet)? Also, does anyone know what shape the current AoE has? Is it a cone originating from the target, pointing away from the wielder? Or is it simply a circle around the target?

I think one of the bigger problems with Tiamat is that it lacks proper feedback. You're never quite sure how many enemies you got in your AoE and as such you're never quite sure how effective it was as an investment. I have a vague idea for a redo that might help with this (improve perceived usefulness) as well as maybe make the item more useful in more situations.

Instead of doing AoE damage, the new Tiamat would do a percentage of your damage to one additional target. This would be indicated visually by a chain-lightning like effect arcing from your original target to the other target. This secondary target would be selected semi-randomly from available targets in a certain range. Semi-randomly because it would "prefer" champions the way Ryze's ulti currently prefers to bounce to champions. All on-hit effects would proc on that secondary target as well.

The key balancing aspect to this implementation would be the range. To make up for the effect no longer affecting any number of enemies, that range would obviously have to be higher than the current AoE range. On the other hand, it can't be too much since if you always hit a second target in a team fight the item would scale too strongly with your damage output.

The advantages to this I see are as follows:

1) Visual feedback. You see the arc lightning whenever it procs. This allows you to judge the usefulness of the item much better.

2) More useful / suitable in more situations. I haven't seen too many team fights where people were standing very close to each other for a longer time. With a bit of range this version may proc much more often.

3) Introduction of a skill element for the enemy. "Don't stand next to the guy being attacked by someone wielding a Tiamat", kinda similar to Zilean bomb avoidance. Again the visual feedback helps here. If you are standing too close you see the zap hitting you and you know you should stand somewhere else.

What do you guys think? Percentage of damage applied to secondary target and range are the main balancing factors, of course.

(and for what it's worth I agree that the regen is quite useless on it; I'd rather have it do a little more damage instead)
I think it is a really cool idea but I would actually like to see it as a new item AND have tiamat fixed rather than having one or the other. though some of your ideas easily could apply to making tiamat better


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Razzle Dazzle

Adjudicator

09-26-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
We increased the AoE size recently. Have you tried it in the last patch or so?
I have. Nice change but not really enough... I like the ideas of a percent damage to nearby enemy's and more damage against the target your focusing.


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Savage

Senior Member

09-26-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
We increased the AoE size recently. Have you tried it in the last patch or so?
What does this have to do with why the item is terrible? Tiamat has no purpose. It's built out of a bunch of very low level items into an early game farming item...that costs over 2000 gold. You can't afford to buy it in the early game when the health and mana regen are still relevant. It's burdened with a bunch of obsolete stats and a terrible recipe in the mid-game.

You need to figure out what you want the item to do. If you want it to be a farming and pushing item, it needs its cost reduced significantly. If you want it to be a source of AoE damage for big 5v5 fights later, it needs to give stats that are relevant for those fights. Otherwise, it will only ever be bought if it's buffed so much that it starts filling one of those roles despite being a schizophrenic item.