@Morello/Xypherous: Can we get an update on the stealth remake please?

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

bebopinjane

Senior Member

07-12-2011

What about teemo? He has stealth too!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ein

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Recruiter

07-12-2011

Well i can see why the stealth is getting nerfed but both the stealth champs are extremely low in hp armor and magic resist will they get some buffs regarding their survive-ability?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sylph

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Emissary of the League

07-12-2011

Very excited about these upcoming changes. Awesome work!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

dredzach

Senior Member

07-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Hm. Okay, well, I suppose it's been a while since I've given an update so I'll chime in on this a little:

Following up from last time, the general problem(s) with long term stealth was:

1. There was no way for the opponents to get an inkling of how clever the stealth player was being, and thus there was no good way to get a sense of how that player operates.
2. Stealth is claustrophobic in the way that it makes you play.
3. Stealth gives very powerful scouting information while simultaneously hiding that information from your opponent.

We tried some iterations past the first few tests, with Paranoia, alternate resource bars, footprints, phasing and mark systems but in the end, we settled on the current system because it was the simplest solution for long-term stealth. In short: "Everyone has reduced Oracles, but Evelynn and Twitch are perma-stealthed."

Some Partial Stealth Details

Disclaimer: I fully understand this destroys a *lot* of the current stealth gameplay changes. Unfortunately, through lots of iteration, I was unable to capture the feeling of pure invisibility while in stealth while having fun gameplay. In the end, I decided to opt for a very simple system that was highly understandable over some more fiddling mechanics.

1. Evelynn and Twitch are permanently stealthed when they rank their level one stealth abilities. However, Evelynn and Twitch can be seen when they are within X units of an enemy champion (Slightly under vision range), or when they are within a true sight radius.

If they attack, they are revealed briefly for 2 seconds before going back into stealth.

This 'X' is being adjusted for feel between the two champions. 'X' is smaller than champion vision radius, so you can "stalk" an opposing champion, but it will be farther away.

2. Evelynn and Twitch have a "sight gem" above opponent's, telling them when the enemy can see them or not and whether they are "safe" (green sight gem), "warning - you are close to being seen, but still unseen" (yellow sight gem) or "being seen" (red sight gem.)

Results

Long Term Stealth, in this case, has been removed as a primary initiation mechanic but allows Eve and Twitch to cross minion vision and regular sight bubbles with impunity and sneak into brush patches by circle/stalk their opponents. Their opponents can likewise spot-check areas with their own reveal radius and create zones were stealth characters "probably aren't, otherwise they'd be seen."

The sight gem allows the Eve/Twitch player to take much of the guesswork out of figuring out when they were being seen or revealed and allows them to put more of their thoughts on clever positioning and sneaking around their opponents, especially for lane ganks.

This also lets us make them more combat oriented characters that don't immediately blow up on start. In general, this stealth has proven to be very difficult to use but allows characters to have some bluff gameplay and interesting circle/stalk gameplay in testing. Your characters can still scout, but at a highly diminished effectiveness (due to the increased range.)

In team fights, stealth proved to be less effective than before, so the character's combat viabilities are being looked at through reworks/remakes.

What is blocking us on releasing this:

1. There's a pretty big problem with the concept known as Oracle-Sweeping. We'd want to replace Oracle's elixir with someone that doesn't cause such weird gameplay but as to what would be a *good* replacement is a little up in the air.

2. General particle/kit rebalancing work - We need to heavily redo Evelynn and Twitch's kits and that comes different visuals and graphical effects.

What I am testing right now - Additionally

Sight wards as being partial motion sensors - Sight wards signalling when a hostile is moving nearby?
"Robot Chicken" scout drone
"Wriggles" for supports?

I probably shouldn't do this but as compensation, some sneaks..

Evelynn can have her stun back, because now you have advanced warning of her when she steps in. She might need a short-step-stun in order to successfully initiate. Testing required. Twitch has proven to be a slightly harder problem in internal testing.

As an aside: Hate spike is now awesome (for me, at least). Evelynn now has Champion prioritizing Lurker Spines. This makes her lane less bad.

As usual, feel free to ask questions for a little bit as I stick around. I don't know all the details of the full remake (as Live better understands that new environment). Sorry for the delay, but with Orianna/Champion pipeline and such, this has been somewhat of a lower priority for me.
I liked the stealth mechanic used with Lanaya Templar Assassin from Dota, which is you can stealth but moving while stealthed breaks it. It would be neat if an eve or twitch would stay invis if they are standing still no matter what the range the enemy is. Then you can position and wait like a spider to strike.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xpyder

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnifeStrong View Post
Doesn't this negate Teemo's passive to the point of uselessness? What's the point of stealthing after five seconds if all anyone has to do is walk up to you?

And what about Shaco and Vayne?
from what Xypherous said, theyre are only altering the perma invisibility mechanics not momentaneous...
so they need not to change teemo or vayne or shaco...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xypherous

Systems Designer

07-12-2011
7 of 18 Riot Posts

Quote:
Doesn't this negate Teemo's passive to the point of uselessness? What's the point of stealthing after five seconds if all anyone has to do is walk up to you?

And what about Shaco and Vayne?
Let me iterate, only long term stealth on Eve and Twitch will be affected by this change.

Teemo will be reclassified as being 'invisible' after 5 seconds.

Quote:
Well i can see why the stealth is getting nerfed but both the stealth champs are extremely low in hp armor and magic resist will they get some buffs regarding their survive-ability?
We'll try to make it so that they don't instantly blow up, yes. Their combat viability needs to increase as they will be unable to ambush as well as before.

Quote:
I liked the stealth mechanic used with Lanaya Templar Assassin from Dota, which is you can stealth but moving while stealthed breaks it. It would be neat if an eve or twitch would stay invis if they are standing still no matter what the range the enemy is. Then you can position and wait like a spider to strike.
I tried that for a while (standing still has a lower reveal range), but the spider-waiting gameplay was *really really frustrating to play against*.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Shurelia

Associate Game Designer

07-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksknight View Post
What happens to Vayne ? Her ult will suck if you go in this new stealth mode.
The stealth remake only applies to strategic stealth spells. Ones that have long durations.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

orphaned

Senior Member

07-12-2011

I REALLY appreciate the info but the rework sounds stupid.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Waffles Inc

Senior Member

07-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebacheba View Post
With the new stealth, what will the level up incentives be? From what it sounds like right now, Twitch and Eve's stealths will be "put one point in early, forget about it until there's nothing else to level up", and I personally really dislike skills like that.
Presumably there'll still be a way to get the non-stealth benefits that were already on those abilities. Something like, press W on Evelynn to make her next attack or spell stun; CD and stun duration scale with spell rank. For Twitch, something a little more interesting would have to be implemented or it just ends up being Tristana's Rapid Fire with stealth attached.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Jansports

Senior Member

07-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurelia View Post
Hi guys!

I've been working on the Eve and Twitch remakes that coincide with the stealth remake. I'll try to post details soon and get some community feedback on it.
I must ask, Will Eve find a home back in the jungle? Or are her days of being the terror in every lane over for good?

On the one hand I highly enjoyed Eve in the jungle, but on the other it did put the other team into a state of such passivity that the game was hardly fun for everyone.