Yi and Madred's Razors

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TheAsianPlayboy

Senior Member

06-15-2011

I've jungled 100000000000 games with yi and went through phases where i had a similar mindset as snaketeeth. I've tried every starting item build imaginable.

Eventually if you play enough games, you will soon realize that your jungling speed will suffer too much. Clearing out jungle + dragon quick matters. Going dagger, you won't be able to get wriggles quickly. Ward every 3 minutes is OP + all the stats of wriggles is super cost efficient.


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Snaketeeth01

Senior Member

06-15-2011

I have never once gotten wriggle's on any hero I have ever played and I never will. If you are controlling the map and lanes well enough, you know where the enemy is even when MIA, without wards.

Also if I am getting stark's with %20 lifesteal, why would I want wriggles on top of that?
If you have stark's and wriggles together, yes you have super high lifesteal.. But lifesteal affect's how long you can trade hit's, and not your damage output. I am able to solo dragon by level 10 without a madred's.
By getting Zeal I have a slight increase to crit chance which with the %2 from masterie's. I know have almost as much chance to land a crit as I do 500 damage. So what if it takes me 8 second's longer to kill dragon. At least my crit's are effective on enemy champ's and not only minions. As soon as I have the 820 for cloak, I'm sitting on a %30 to crit, opposed to %15 from madred's.
Which not only does the percentage alone mean I will be doubling my base AD (+wuju) more often. But the AS offer by PD proc's these crit's and double strike more often than wriggle's would.

The additional %5 lifesteal from wriggle's compared to the base %12 of vamp scepter only seem's like it's more help because of the shiny pretty larger number.

Based on 100 attack damage and 3 attacks.

%17 lifesteal will give you
17+17+17= 51 life returned.

%12 = 36 life returned.

Which is only 15 health. So what factor's affect lifesteal exactly?
Attack speed, Armor penetration, Attack damage
Wriggle's offer's some added attack, and lifesteal, but the armor only affect's physical damage taken.
You could setup some big fancy chart comparing the affect's of AD vs AS, but you know that there is no difference between making bigger hit's less often, or lesser hit's more often. There is a point when these 2 value's even out.
But what I see is that by getting zeal over madred's not only do you ALMOST match your early game jungle speed, and damaeg output, but you give yourself more advantage while ganking. But more importantly that Phantom dancer team's with Infinity edge putting you at +%50 chance to critical with built in AS which just further synnergizes with highlander and Wuju. Creating a fast and strong burst against champion's, and with passive's alone you can clear any large jungle creep's fast enough.
Instead of wriggles I also prefer vamp scepter because as I've said, not only is this enough lifesteal to get you through jungle safely. But you can upgrade to emblem of valor for only 350 gold. Which will give you 2hp per second, and %17 lifesteal. Which is helpful if you are trading hit's with any champion. Whereas having armor only helps you trade hits with physical damage. This is the advantage of relying on stealing health based on your own damage opposed to relying on stealing health from your damage, and relying on hindering incoming damage. If you crank up your damage high enough you can surpass the effect's of armor in the mid game.
When it come's to late you now only need to pick up whichever armor you feel you need because with all the movespeed you have you are able to inititate and escape faster than a madred's build would.

If something in here confuses you or you get lost, I'm not surprised. There are alot of idea's I'm trying to touch upon here.

In response to asian playboy, I am able to clear out dragon just as fast as madreds if not faster and i previously explained the advantage of zerker's over madred's for those early gank's.
Any time I play solo top and I have a "jungler" they are building madred's and focusing on clearing out the jungle so they can get their second item built. By the time they have madred's and tier 1 boot which is 1350 gold.. my enemy is now up to level 5 and his failed gank attempt does me nothing. His very presence allow's them to pull back because he lacks the movespeed to initiate BEFORE they have the chance to pull out. Too many junglers have told me they can't help because they arn't built for it. This is why I do not trust solo queue jungler's. Too many people take the mindset it's all about farming fast, getting to level 6, then making a huge appearence. I would rather jungle safely knowing that at anytime I can run to any lane and secure a kill with exhaust and redbuff. Effectively using movespeed to go from camp A to B faster than madred's, and killing creep's faster.

Also if you can explain to me how madred's help's this situation, then kudo's to you.
Wraith camp. Alpha in, 1 die's other 3 take 400 mgc dmg left with very little health.
Which would offer more benefit, hitting them FASTER, or having %15 to deal 500 which is more than double their remaining health.

I know you say the reverse, but I have tried jungling Yi with madred's. Hated it, it was a complete trainwreck to my playstyle, and I seen absolutely no improvement to my time, and no advantages whatsoever.


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Snaketeeth01

Senior Member

06-15-2011

http://postimage.org/image/19n917ic/

At this point I have my boot's built and about to grab redbuff.

My bottom lane were playing too aggresive for me to gank bot, so what I did was grab my rebuff, then recall grabbing agility elexier and went on to double kill top lane.

http://postimage.org/image/1tt9ykas/

at this point I was well capable of ganking bottom lane, if my mates were to pull back. But since they didn't I grabbed enemy blue buff before proceeding to top.

http://postimage.org/image/1un1mt6s/

At this point I had elexir active on me, just cleared a double kill even though jarvan died in the exchange, he overcommited when I didn't need it. My blue buff is still half active, while my jungle route allow's me to grab my blue>wolves>wraiths>dragon
I took out blue and wolves, got 2 pieces of zeal, and was sitting at 1.2 AS before highlander. with %30 crit.
I solo'd dragon at level 9, warded top river, and grabbed another double kill.

Sitting at 3 kills just over the ten minute mark.. Madred's simply will not give you that.
the ONLY benefit madred's gives you to killing a champion is the slight AD which can be balanced with AS and crit's.


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TheAsianPlayboy

Senior Member

06-15-2011

Yeah people who make madreds before boots is bad if your lane needs a gank asap. Instead of going cloth armor + pots -> madreds they should be going cloth armor + boots + more pots -> gank. then finish madreds after.

Wriggles is one of the best items for most junglers. Ward is mostly for your team not really for yourself.

Madred's/wriggle's power is being able to clear buffs quickly. Many times one of your lanes will need you there asap to help to gank. The armor also helps you when you gank because most of the time there will be minions there and you will draw aggro when ganking. So with madreds you will always be ready to help out with buffs and stay mostly full hp. If you don't have madreds its going to take you 10+ seconds instead of 3 seconds to clear a buff which can be crucial when your top lane needs to b but is hanging around with 1/4 hp, or your mid gets ganked and you are still clearing red whereas if you had madreds u could already be done with red and be at mid to save your ally.

edit - why are you only lvl 5 at 7:00. you can get that almost at 5:00.


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Snaketeeth01

Senior Member

06-15-2011

my first 2 images show a "slow jungle time"
my third image show's why my time is acceptable.
Being able to build to have 3 kills and dragon by 11 minute's.

I also spent around 40 waiting for a gank opportunity at bottom but my mates were too aggresive. Had they pulled back, I'd have been ganking bottom. But since I had to go all the way to top (when my route ends at bottom) I spent too much time getting from A - B losing out on xp. Which make's getting those kill's even more important.
Had I other item's with me i would have taken even more time to get where I wanted, and what if my gank attempt's failed? not only feeding, but now wasting my own time getting that xp.

Also as soon as I had zeal I was at +%30 crit chance landing for 200 each.

And like I said, I was able to solo dragon at level 9 without madred. I know WW can clear sooner, but the thread is for Yi.

Again, Yi is all about the lategame build. Where my zerker zeal vamp build into a multitude of lategame Yi build's, Wriggles is an item I would end up replacing in late. the slight armor, the slight AD.. waste of an item slot. When it comes to me replacing my core in late, I'd drop Zerker's for another PD giving me the same MS, but tipping my AS to 2.0 and taking me to %80 crit chance with 850 Dmg.
I get my damage from Apen rather than AD.

If you have AD, a squishy can counter it with armor. If they have armor they can counter Apen with.. oh nothing. health? more armor?
I like my Yi to be based on crit's Apen, and AS.

In all honesty being a glass cannon means you have to pick the right moment to strike. Jump into a team of 3-4 and your dead. have 23 armor, will not make the difference.
So if your picking the right moment's to attack and killing them fast enough, you don't really need armor do you?
My lategame armor is alway's thornmail as my biggest threats are other dps char's.
If I need MR I grab wit's end and commit to the kill knowing that i will either kill him and use highlander to escape, or I will die soaking up 6 skill's and giving my teamates the chance to cleanup.

When a kill is worth 300 gold AND starving that champion from XP. That is more beneficial then hittin level 6 in a shorter time. Not to mention being able to turn a double kill into taking out a turret.


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Vaeril

Junior Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaketeeth01 View Post
I have never once gotten wriggle's on any hero I have ever played and I never will.
Searched your name and the first game that came up has you using a Wriggles on Shaco. I FOUND THIS HUMOROUS!


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