@Coronach I think LeBlanc has some problems.

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CantFitMyWholeNa

Senior Member

06-08-2011

Not that any reds will read this, but I think a huge problem (maybe even THE problem) for leblanc is her skilling order.

Think about it, what spells bring the most to your team? W and E. But if you level anything but Q at every opportunity you throw your early game down the toilet.

And potentially W needs more damage to make it worth using for AoE instead of just blinking in/out of combat. Maybe W could deal bonus damage based on missing health like garens R, but honestly thats probably a crappy idea and dont do it.

WHAT I THINK SHE NEEDS:
R damage should not be affected by skilling order. then if a lvl8 leblanc wants to ER instead of QR she wont throw ~300+ damage down the drain.


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Coronach

Game Designer

06-08-2011
2 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by CantFitMyWholeNa View Post
Not that any reds will read this, but I think a huge problem (maybe even THE problem) for leblanc is her skilling order.

Think about it, what spells bring the most to your team? W and E. But if you level anything but Q at every opportunity you throw your early game down the toilet.

And potentially W needs more damage to make it worth using for AoE instead of just blinking in/out of combat. Maybe W could deal bonus damage based on missing health like garens R, but honestly thats probably a crappy idea and dont do it.

WHAT I THINK SHE NEEDS:
R damage should not be affected by skilling order. then if a lvl8 leblanc wants to ER instead of QR she wont throw ~300+ damage down the drain.
That's not a bad point. W and E have significant utility built in compared to Q to hopefully offset this imbalance and still provide value in double blinking or double chaining someone. Double blinking rarely is a scenario where the damage matters (chasing people or running away), but the chain may feel bad at lower ranks.


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Coronach

Game Designer

06-08-2011
3 of 4 Riot Posts

@arrogantia and the original post

Quote:
Late mid-game/end-game are where LeBlanc begins to taper off as a champion. Because of the aforementioned high base damages on her abilities, they have accordingly low AP ratios and as such her damage and threat level begin to wane later on. She is still typically able to take out at least one member of the opposing team, and because of her god-tier mobility and escapes, remain alive to influence the rest of the teamfight. The problem is, her influence hereafter is minimal. Even the most minimal amount of Magic Resist has a powerful effect on her damage output, so the beefier members of a team are rather difficult to take out. She retains some utility in her slow/snare and intermittent silences, but both of these require LeBlanc to place herself in harm's way because of the tether aspect of E and the fact that you need a second ability to proc the silence on Q (R here keeps her pretty safe, but it will be on cooldown for some time after assassinating the enemy squishy).
There is a bit to this paragraph. I don't believe that she has low AP ratios on her base, nor on her ultimate which multiplies those ratios. This may no longer be the case with the direction the live team is pursuing, but I do believe that they are within reason for what we want a burst caster to be.

In my opinion the core issue is something you mention above, in that even the slightest MR has a significant impact on caster damage output. I believe LeBlanc is the prime example of how it has a negative impact on gameplay. The balance between Magic Resistance and Magic Penetration is way off if we want to have MR be as strong of a counter as it is.

The fact that she has to put herself in harm's way is deliberate. A character with the amount of CC and mobility would be incredibly frustrating to fight against if she wasn't constantly drawn back into range for counter-gameplay. Sigil of Silence, Distortion, and Ethereal Chains all have aspects of them to keep her in check. I'd hope that this creates more compelling moment to moment gameplay knowing that you're not completely safe. I don't think we want to break this pattern and introduce significant frustration for her to be viable in high level play.

Ultimately, I believe the right fixes for LeBlanc reside outside of character design.


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Necks

Senior Member

06-08-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coronach View Post
That's not a bad point. W and E have significant utility built in compared to Q to hopefully offset this imbalance and still provide value in double blinking or double chaining someone. Double blinking rarely is a scenario where the damage matters (chasing people or running away), but the chain may feel bad at lower ranks.
Coronach, did you know your creation, LeBlanc, has a bug with her ultimate? It mimics abilities only after they have landed, rather than mimicking the ability upon button press.

Example:
So, you plan to blink in over a wall (W), then Q, then R (mimicked Q), then press W again to return to safety. All of this must happen very fast. Fail. Fail. FAIL. What really happens is: you blink over the wall, throw out your Q; when you press R again, you actually mimicked your blink! Because your Q projectile is still traveling in mid-air and has not landed on a target yet. It's mind-numbingly stupid of a bug and it really deserves to be fixed.


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Coronach

Game Designer

06-09-2011
4 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necks View Post
Coronach, did you know your creation, LeBlanc, has a bug with her ultimate? It mimics abilities only after they have landed, rather than mimicking the ability upon button press.

Example:
So, you plan to blink in over a wall (W), then Q, then R (mimicked Q), then press W again to return to safety. All of this must happen very fast. Fail. Fail. FAIL. What really happens is: you blink over the wall, throw out your Q; when you press R again, you actually mimicked your blink! Because your Q projectile has not landed on a target yet. It's mind-numbingly stupid of a bug and it really deserves to be fixed.
It should be on spell cast. I'll look into this for the next patch.


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arrogantia

Member

06-09-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necks View Post
Coronach, did you know your creation, LeBlanc, has a bug with her ultimate? It mimics abilities only after they have landed, rather than mimicking the ability upon button press.

Example:
So, you plan to blink in over a wall (W), then Q, then R (mimicked Q), then press W again to return to safety. All of this must happen very fast. Fail. Fail. FAIL. What really happens is: you blink over the wall, throw out your Q; when you press R again, you actually mimicked your blink! Because your Q projectile is still traveling in mid-air and has not landed on a target yet. It's mind-numbingly stupid of a bug and it really deserves to be fixed.
I don't think this is the case. I believe what you're experiencing is the often-frustrating experience of your target being out of range of your Q before you get it off and since her combos are so speed-reliant, your hasty R follow-up snags your W because your Q never actually went off.

I play with smart-casting on all of my normal (QWERDF) binds so I'm used to a fast WQR. It's very normal to get off my R on a max-range Vayne as she Tumbles back or anyone as they flash away. I happily see both my gold and purple spiky deathballs fly off into the fog of war and am rewarded with "You have slain an enemy!" shortly thereafter. This wouldn't be near-possible if the Q had to land before the R mimicked Q.

But if your maneuver fails and you WQR but your Q fails to land because they have moved out of range, your speedy R follow-up hits the W. It's frustrating, but I like this because it's a simple human error issue that can be fixed with practice.


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CrowdControlz

Senior Member

06-09-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coronach View Post
That sounds like a bug, it should be on spell cast. I'll look into this for the next patch.
That is a rather annoying bug indeed. Although I've learned to just Shift+R, W after my Q lands.

@ Original poster:
My 1 ranked game with Leblanc I did 17-5-8... and lost, at end game I was basically just focusing down a single target and becoming useless till my ult and/or W came back up whereas opposed to say Warwick or Tryndamere (some of my other mains) with the kind of $$ that I had accumulated could have easily taken out 2-3 enemies in a 2v1/3v1 fight scenario.


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Doriantv

Member

06-09-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coronach View Post
It should be on spell cast. I'll look into this for the next patch.
Thank god. This was frustrating me to no end.


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Nyx87

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Senior Member

06-09-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coronach View Post

In my opinion the core issue is something you mention above, in that even the slightest MR has a significant impact on caster damage output. I believe LeBlanc is the prime example of how it has a negative impact on gameplay. The balance between Magic Resistance and Magic Penetration is way off if we want to have MR be as strong of a counter as it is.

Ultimately, I believe the right fixes for LeBlanc reside outside of character design.
I believe this is correct. When I play Leblanc, I hunt squishies who are too cheap to buy Magic Resist and punish them for it. Q->R is very deadly if you have enough Magic Pen.

I think a change to Haunting Guise would be helpful. It's a very lame caster item that has precious Magic Pen attached to it. Health is not very useful on Leblanc though, so i usually bypass it and get voidstaff if they have gotten Magic Resist.


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Saturok

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Senior Member

06-09-2011

If you don't think she's complete #$%@ then check it out...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha9MF8FsnTM