Why Buff Xin Zhao?

First Riot Post
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Corruption44

Senior Member

04-24-2011

if he runs at you 1v1 he'll have more around +5/10 armor instead of the current 20 teamfight buff, solo nerf


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

04-24-2011
1 of 1 Riot Posts

The reason people picked XZ before the nerfs was basically: Chain CC'ing one person to oblivion, giving them no recourse whatsoever to respond.

From a gameplay perspective, this was awful. It made XZ unanswerable and had very little counterplay in small scale fights.

We took a large part of his one on one power and shifted it more into sustainable consistent damage. By increasing his end-level audacious charge CD and nerfing his 'W' duration, we decreased his total CC chain significantly by one to two TTS's and at least one audacious charge.

The change to his 'R' makes it so that we can fiddle with the numbers such that, in a one on one environment his defenses are slightly lower than they are now, but in larger fights his defenses are higher to compensate for the increased damage.

In the end, this is less a power-balance change than a design optimization. We cannot make someone whose entire focus is perma-stunlock till death competitively viable with perma-stunlock. We had to move him away from that role and push his power a little more towards teamfights.

People have asked why we haven't looked at other champions who were similarly "nerfed" into oblivion. For example, Jax has been a tricky problem that we've remade no less than 3 times. His core design is still problematic, being a dodge-based champion and yet that is his identity.

Gragas, the other rallying cry, is competitively viable for high elo but not for lower elos. Each time someone asks us to balance for high ELOs, I hesitate because most of the time 'balanced for high ELO' means that everyone else can't play him due to the skill requirements thereof. :<


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trollolo1

Senior Member

04-24-2011

i think we would all welcome higher skill cap champs


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SlyGoat

Member

04-24-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Gragas, the other rallying cry, is competitively viable for high elo but not for lower elos. Each time someone asks us to balance for high ELOs, I hesitate because most of the time 'balanced for high ELO' means that everyone else can't play him due to the skill requirements thereof. :<
I don't understand Gragas's "skill requirements". I barely ever play him, but every time I do, I do well with whatever random build I decide to use. Same with Cho'gath who people continue to claim was overnerfed (how can anyone with a knockup + 3 second 60% slow on a 5 second cooldown and 3 second AoE silence on an 8 second cooldown be overnerfed?)


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Iddy Biddy Tiddy

Member

04-24-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
The reason people picked XZ before the nerfs was basically: Chain CC'ing one person to oblivion, giving them no recourse whatsoever to respond.

From a gameplay perspective, this was awful. It made XZ unanswerable and had very little counterplay in small scale fights.

We took a large part of his one on one power and shifted it more into sustainable consistent damage. By increasing his end-level audacious charge CD and nerfing his 'W' duration, we decreased his total CC chain significantly by one to two TTS's and at least one audacious charge.

The change to his 'R' makes it so that we can fiddle with the numbers such that, in a one on one environment his defenses are slightly lower than they are now, but in larger fights his defenses are higher to compensate for the increased damage.

In the end, this is less a power-balance change than a design optimization. We cannot make someone whose entire focus is perma-stunlock till death competitively viable with perma-stunlock. We had to move him away from that role and push his power a little more towards teamfights.

People have asked why we haven't looked at other champions who were similarly "nerfed" into oblivion. For example, Jax has been a tricky problem that we've remade no less than 3 times. His core design is still problematic, being a dodge-based champion and yet that is his identity.

Gragas, the other rallying cry, is competitively viable for high elo but not for lower elos. Each time someone asks us to balance for high ELOs, I hesitate because most of the time 'balanced for high ELO' means that everyone else can't play him due to the skill requirements thereof. :<
I don't think you really nerfed his 1v1 because he can usually kill a non-tank after completing his combo just once, so you more nerfed his ability to use his combo again to catch other nearby enemies. In addition, the buff on his ultimate just assures that he stays alive longer for the couple extra seconds you have to wait for his cooldowns, but by doing this, you're allowing XZ to build even more offensive and need less defense, like he is automatically tanky dps even if you built him pure dps.


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BroForgotnglory

Senior Member

04-24-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
The reason people picked XZ before the nerfs was basically: Chain CC'ing one person to oblivion, giving them no recourse whatsoever to respond.

From a gameplay perspective, this was awful. It made XZ unanswerable and had very little counterplay in small scale fights.

We took a large part of his one on one power and shifted it more into sustainable consistent damage. By increasing his end-level audacious charge CD and nerfing his 'W' duration, we decreased his total CC chain significantly by one to two TTS's and at least one audacious charge.

The change to his 'R' makes it so that we can fiddle with the numbers such that, in a one on one environment his defenses are slightly lower than they are now, but in larger fights his defenses are higher to compensate for the increased damage.

In the end, this is less a power-balance change than a design optimization. We cannot make someone whose entire focus is perma-stunlock till death competitively viable with perma-stunlock. We had to move him away from that role and push his power a little more towards teamfights.

People have asked why we haven't looked at other champions who were similarly "nerfed" into oblivion. For example, Jax has been a tricky problem that we've remade no less than 3 times. His core design is still problematic, being a dodge-based champion and yet that is his identity.

Gragas, the other rallying cry, is competitively viable for high elo but not for lower elos. Each time someone asks us to balance for high ELOs, I hesitate because most of the time 'balanced for high ELO' means that everyone else can't play him due to the skill requirements thereof. :<

Well you just had to go and mention gragas.......... i think your a little confused about the rally cry for gragas.


The rally cries are not about buffing gragas. There about bringing back the funner and more satisifying playstyle of tank/ad gragas.


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SlyGoat

Member

04-24-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroForgotnglory View Post
Well you had to go and mention gragas.......... i think your a little confused about the rally cry for gragas.


The rally crys are not about buffing gragas. There about bringing back the funnger and more satisifying playstyle of tank/ad gragas.
...AD gragas was viable at some point? And somehow was nerfed? I don't remember him having drunken rage's AD nerfed, or body slam's AD scaling, or any of his AD stats...

Tank gragas isn't viable and the most used build for him?

Man I need to get with the times.


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Jemrin

Senior Member

04-24-2011

They nerfed his 1v1
He can still jump on you and beat your face in
but its much much easier to get away from him
He isn't going to be doing two TTS in a row or two quick successive Charges

As for Gragas
I liked him as a AD or a Tank
AP is fun but it does not really offer the fun of getting into a ''Bar Brawl'' so to speak


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BroForgotnglory

Senior Member

04-24-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlyGoat View Post
...AD gragas was viable at some point? And somehow was nerfed? I don't remember him having drunken rage's AD nerfed, or body slam's AD scaling, or any of his AD stats...

Tank gragas isn't viable and the most used build for him?

Man I need to get with the times.

Well i'll admit that when i use to play ad grag i was a fairly lower elo (between 1000-1200) but back before his dash nerf, his strong early game combined with his ult actually made him a really great mid. Honestly ad gragas could man handle just about any carry.

Aside from that, all i see these days are ap grags.

Moreover, i haven't seen anyone use gragas as a tank in months.


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Shiresk

Senior Member

04-24-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
The reason people picked XZ before the nerfs was basically: Chain CC'ing one person to oblivion, giving them no recourse whatsoever to respond.

From a gameplay perspective, this was awful. It made XZ unanswerable and had very little counterplay in small scale fights.

We took a large part of his one on one power and shifted it more into sustainable consistent damage. By increasing his end-level audacious charge CD and nerfing his 'W' duration, we decreased his total CC chain significantly by one to two TTS's and at least one audacious charge.

The change to his 'R' makes it so that we can fiddle with the numbers such that, in a one on one environment his defenses are slightly lower than they are now, but in larger fights his defenses are higher to compensate for the increased damage.

In the end, this is less a power-balance change than a design optimization. We cannot make someone whose entire focus is perma-stunlock till death competitively viable with perma-stunlock. We had to move him away from that role and push his power a little more towards teamfights.

People have asked why we haven't looked at other champions who were similarly "nerfed" into oblivion. For example, Jax has been a tricky problem that we've remade no less than 3 times. His core design is still problematic, being a dodge-based champion and yet that is his identity.

Gragas, the other rallying cry, is competitively viable for high elo but not for lower elos. Each time someone asks us to balance for high ELOs, I hesitate because most of the time 'balanced for high ELO' means that everyone else can't play him due to the skill requirements thereof. :<
I love your posts