Shaco discussion thread.

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CrazyBear

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04-19-2011

edit for recent patch:
Shaco

Jack-in-the-Box
Boxes are now immune to damage while stealthed if the source cannot see them
Jack in the Box trigger radius reduced to 325 from 400 to mitigate cases where it fears targets and they run out of range, rendering the Box unable to attack
Fixed a bug where Jack in the Boxes could be seen by stealthed enemies
Fixed a bug where Jack in the Boxes could be seen in brush or through fog of war while not stealthed if an enemy was nearby
Fixed a bug where Jack in the Boxes would sometimes stop attacking targets if they both were in brush
Fixed a bug where Jack in the Boxes could activate but fail to fear targets moving near the edge of its range
Fixed a bug where turrets would always attack Jack in the Boxes first
Improved Jack in the Box AI
Boxes will hard lock onto the closest champion that has damaged Shaco recently, or that Shaco has damaged
Boxes will soft lock onto other non-neutral-monsters they attack (they will prefer to keep attacking that target)
We plan more Box AI improvements in the future!

What this means. Well it's some nice fixes to a lot of very annoying bugs that we've had to compensate for like dropping wards in our nests so they activate properly or two-shiving immediately so they activate properly.

One key note though is the activation range. Shorter activation range means that we don't have as much room to compensate which is a bit of a negative. But on the plus side I'm betting that if we box the far side of the bushes in bot/top lane against the edge of the map the boxes likely won't activate on the creeps running through so it should help for those sneak in the back lane ganks. Also with the new ping change it should allow us to be more devious than before. Right now I don't necessarily see him being pro tourney viable as I still believe his needs jungling re-work. But i'm not going to be a debbie downer and blow these changes off as they are very nice to have.


edit: Been over 4 months and all we've seen is that his clone can crit, his clone shows items, his boxes bugged out a bit more but still manageable to jungle and still pretty much still the same champ. Can we get some love floating in his directions I mean seriously. I'm not even asking to change up his jungle like I proposed. Some more scaling on decieve/two-shiv or make it bonus ad so his early game doesn't get a lot stronger? Guinsoo my brospeh hook this clown up. You want a more active early game? Give this clown some miracle ganks and have some people dying man. Lots of champs have escapes and defensive mechanisms and ways to get tanky as ****. Can't assassinate what doesn't ****in die am i right? Try ganking a level 12 solo top morde/j4/irelia/udyr/warwick/whatever popular solo top as shaco sometime and see what happens. It ain't pretty they damage you harder since you have less defense and your damage tickles them man.

Also guinsoo why should I play shaco over nocturne? For some box control and quick dragon/baron's? That doesn't make a champion. Nocturnes fear is easier to land, does damage up front, doesn't get aoed or dies before it goes off, he closes much larger gaps, can eat a cc without having to time his ultimate, has less delay on his skills, better steroids and better sustain in the jungle? Shaco gots a better sub-6 gank but people are only sub-level 6 for the first 8 minutes of a 30 minute+ match. Then he's out classed by a lot of junglers. Sure he's hard to catch but a lot of the champions that are hard to catch aren't super viable. You ever see leblanc in tourney play? Nope. Kassadin.. yeah a little and he got facerolled. Assassins need burst damage to kill not sustained damage, which is one of shaco's flaws as with ap shaco his jungle is **** but his burst is a bit better but you lose out on your decieve (until lichbane) damage and your ulti. Ad shaco you get **** scaling but you lose out on your boxes damage and have less burst for better sustain and better pushing.


Please let us know if your planning on changing him up a bit besides just fixing a large amount of bugs.

end rant.



Shaco is my favorite champion in this game period. Probably my most played and the one I care for the most.. wasn't even used in any dreamhack games or in the qualifiers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
We're working on him... we actually got some engineering time to take a look at him so hopefully that will help. We also have some plans to work on him (buff him) once we fix... something else.
BEST NEWS WE'VE HAD IN A LONG TIME MY SHACO BRETHREN. LETS HOPE IT'S IN THE NEAR FUTURE AND NOT MONTHS/YEARS LATER.

nerf history is here: http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...=1#post9897478

I started this game around June of 2010 I have since acquired over 1.3k games played. At least 200+ of those games are with shaco. His sneaky play style is what captured me the most. I loved the stealth/blink for juking, jib's for traps or to scout while i'm busy doing other things on the other side of the river.

History: Shaco has been extensively nerfed and with good reason. He at one point had pretty much guranteed first blood with shorter stealth cooldown and longer duration, jitb's placed in stealth, backstab doing 25% bonus damage, blind on his auto attacks, fast red buffs, etc. Basically if shaco got red someone was going to die. This promoted some severely passive game play. Wards were more costly then so getting them early was a bit harder to do without severly gimping yourself. Redbuff was stronger for level 2 mid ganks, arpen runes were stronger, (talking 150+ damage decieve hits on a level 1 ashe with maybe 450hp.. she was going down). This meant that the first 15 minutes of the game you pretty much lived in fear that the evil clown was going to kill you, which promoted a gameplay riot didn't like. Just like with heimerdinger taking out your mid turret by 10 mins in and pushing the **** out of everything with grenade spam. Didn't like the fact that if you left your lane for 1 minute it'd be gone and the next tower would be at half hp.

So what did riot do directly:
Nerfed deceive duration.. warranted but still stung but he was pretty much uncatchable.
Nerfed decieve cooldown.... because he was uncatchable.
Nerfed backstab to be 20% instead of 25% because the whole situation of run and he kills you faster, fight and he blinds you and kills you slower.
Got rid of champion blind
Hallucinate has a super short duration since he could backdoor like a boss with it and made it weaker at lower levels which made it harder to gank them tanky overextending guys at levels 6-11.
Shortened jitb range by a lot and for really no good reason at all. This also hurt me a lot as it made it easier to cv where i was and more obvious to the keen observer where i was stacking boxes.
Can't drop jitb while stealthed. Hurt his ganking potential massively. That was shaco's form of cc. Olaf gets his slow (never was a real good ganker anyways), nocturne his fear, udyr his bearstance, xin his charge, yi well yi is just super fast and alpha strike + wuju + doublestrike is a lot of damage to gank with, nunu has iceblast and bloodboil, ww has a good chasing skill and infinite durress. Shaco has his jitb fear. Without it 1 flash and the gank was done for.... What you might be thinking though was well shaco has a gap closer so it's still fine, and i'll touch on this later.
That basically covers most of the nerfs at least the major ones.

Indirect nerfs:
Mr increase on jungle monsters. Lowers jitb and smite damage output by what i think was 18%. Slows him down and makes it a bit riskier to jungle with as if the boxes glitch out like they are known to do... you get real low on hp.
Aura effects on clones. No more starks on shaco = less damage out put from both him and the clone when it was out. Killed sunfire shaco, starks shaco, guardian angel no longer resed the clone (but morde can still ghost it?wtf?) extending it's duration.
Dragon made stronger and baron. No more 6 box level 12 epic baron's, soloing dragon early on is a lot harder.
Wriggles hurts his sustainability (not super dramatic but still hurts nonetheless).
Wards made cheaper so it's stupid not to get an early ward to protect against shaco early game when he's at his strongest.
Towers made stronger... makes it harder to backdoor.
A few more I might have missed but these are some of the more major ones.

Flaws with his current design:
Prep time jungling. It's a love hate relationship and for me lately more hate than love. Sure the first few times it's cool to hurry up and buy your items and rush to set your boxes up. Makes you feel more involved rather than doing /dance while waiting for them to spawn. But also when all that precious time you spent waiting on a 15 second cooldown and setting up 5 boxes gets popped and you have to run away.. that's not very fun. Or when your taking a bio break real quick and nobody has a wooden computer so you come back and it's 1:45 seconds in and you realized that you just gimped your jungling out for a piss.. that's not cool either. Seriously everybody and their grandma knows the red route or the blue route. It's not rocket science. One well placed cv at red and you don't see shaco or a box being placed.. then you like oh well he must be at blue then. So you grab you team of 5 strong cv the blue area out, have your tanky men who are probably stacking magic res runes themselves pop the boxes, try not to get killed or just fight as shaco runs to the other buff to hopefully set up another box or two and slave it out. Doing this all knowing that his 4 minute-ish clear time just go pushed back by another 30+seconds at least.

Do this to warwick and either he'll stay and fight (q good at level 1, or aoe speed buff good for entire team) and if worse comes to worse he'll just do another one of his 2435437523490 routes.

My suggestion to fix this is really simple and there are two options:
1. increase jib health and defense. Why? first off they are cannon fodder late game so it would help him out a bit there. Secondly 1 boxing mini golems at level 1 they die before they even fire all the shots off.
2. Give shaco some passive lifesteal when hitting targets in the back. This way he still uses the box for aggro and doesn't kill the flavor and can be a bit more sustained. Nearly every other jungler has built in lifesteal (even yi has meditate), rammus and amumu may not but they are tanky and take way less damage.
I'll leave the numbers up to you riot. I had some other ideas but they would probably make him broken op again.

Heavily dependent on early game, i'd go so far as to say the most early game dependent champion in the game. Why because his scaling sucks monkey balls.
Seriously lets look at his skills.

Deceive- adds a "false crit" to his next attack doing up to 120% bonus damage. Sounds like a lot right? Well considering it isn't effected by infinity edge and the massive cooldown on this ability it's pretty subpar and only good early game when people are only pimping out a few doran's items. Later on ezreal's q does more damage, spammable, longer range, and shortens his cd's by 1 second.
To put this in numbers at 200 ad which is an reasonable amount, which is about how much you would have if you had wriggles/bloodrazor and level 18. It would only add 240 damage and is on a 11 second cooldown. Now how to fix this i'm not sure. Hell I wouldn't touch this skill with a 50ft pole without it ruining the champ completely or making it brokenly overpowered so we'll leave it like it is.

Two-shiv- Deals 40/80/120/160/200 magic damage to the enemy. Has a 1 to 1 ability power ratio. But only a freakin .5 to 1 ad ratio? Maybe they wanted shaco to be ability power when they first came out with him and rely on jib's, two-shiv, and lichbane procs for decieve to do damage. But that doesn't work to well. I mean sure you can jungle ap shaco but with boxes getting blown up like it's going out of style surely ain't helping him. Nearly everyone anymore plays ad shaco. I'd say give it at least a 1 to 1 ad ratio. Also i'd leave the monster/minion blind on permanently as it will help his sustain a bit and help speed it up as he is rather slow compared to quite a few of the other junglers.

Jitb- His arguably class defining skill. It's what allows him to jungle. To backdoor safely. To ward, it's what brings his utility. All in this little skill. Only issue i have besides the prep time for jungling. Is how easily these things die. My vote is just make it immune to aoe damage and call it good. If they right click the box to kill it then good for them, but volley spamming the **** out of it no bueno. If that is deemed overpowered and it maybe is in that state then have it get some scaling mr/ar when you level them. Maybe like 6 or so per level.. you choose the numbers. Early game these boxes pretty much own people. 6 level 3 boxes can take down most level 7 champs nearly by themselves. OP? hell no he spent 15 second on each box without blue buff to set it up and if he had bluebuff then good for him for doing it nice and quick. Annoying as hell.. you betcha, gotta give the clown credit though for predicting you were going that way and wasting his time and what could have been a useless endeavor.


OOh yeah almost forgot.. Anyways with the jitb from stealth nerf. I propose that the deceive bonus after you deceive still stays for about as long as a sheen proc maybe a bit shorter. This way you can still stealth in drop a box, come out of stealth, and still get the bonus damage, whilst giving your opponent sometime to react still.

Hallucinate-- honestly this skill is good for killing towers, monster objectives, early game ganks, and spell popping. Later on it's good for killing towers, baron/dragon, spell popping. This skill i'm not sure what to do with. I love the spell popping but i'm actually willing to give up some of it's usefulness for something else. This is one of those skills you mess with and it'll probably be too good at 1 thing and **** at the others. Part of me wants to keep it though and denying karthus kills with it is just lovely, but the fact that skill alone was really nerfed because of shaco's poor scaling which caused him to backdoor which in turn hurt his dragon/baron capabilities does suck. Really not sure what this skill needs without it being a broken ability without just getting rid of it entirely. But anyways, it does apply on hit effects... nice. But it does die faster than you can blink. The scaling on this skill currently is .75 which is nice since it does auto attack and if left to free roam can put some hurt on but the fact of the matter is that early game i use to help with ganks but mainly just to steal tower aggro for when pursuing a champion that has flashed and i know i can finish them off. It's really a jack of all trades skill that is useful but very weak at everything except dragon/baron (gg double razor procs only thing keeping it alive).

Backstab: his passive ad steroid skill adds 20% bonus damage for hitting targets in the back. Works with clone... nice. Good for killing runners. Helps with jungling. Bad part is lategame most people just turn around and blast you in the face which really hurts this skill. Like earlier I'd suggest a passive lifesteal component for hitting targets in the back.

Scaling.. he could use a wee bit of help in this department.

Armor.. i'd increase his base armor from 15 to maybe 18 and keep the scaling the same.
Mana regen maybe .12 instead of .09 so when denied blue buff early it doesn't murder your jungling. ( even amumu/rammus/udyr can still softjungle easily without blue)
Health maybe 445 instead of 421 and keep the scaling the same.
Attack damage (i know i'm pushing it here) maybe 54 instead of 51.7 and keep the scaling the same.
Mana maybe 230-235 base mana.. depending on and if you go about lowering his prep time for a solid jungle clear.


Summary/TL;DR:
Two-shiv 1 to 1 ad ratio instead of .5 to 1, always blinds monsters instead of only off cd.
Deceive gives a sheen like proc so you can drop a jitb and not lose the bonus damage.
Backstab to incorporate a passive lifesteal for hitting targets in the back maybe even minion/monster only? So his prep time jungling when ruined isn't totally screwed.
Increase jitb mr/ar scaling so they aren't cannon fodder later in the game.
Change aspects of hallucinate so it feels more like and ultimate without making him godlike at ganking/baron/dragon/backdooring.
Increase base stats a bit to help him not be so dependent on blue buff early on so he can maximize his early game more easily.


May add more later.. as i remember other things i've thought of or to incorporate some of your guys. As for you guys claiming that he's still used in high elo sucessfully. Yeah sure we've all been in or seen those games where a shaco dominates the entire enemy team. Those are few and far to come by. If you get a rough start your basically just a glorified backdoor champion. Even reginalds guide (you know the guy who invented the red buff route) talks about "split pushing" aka backdooring while your teammates fend them off. I've thought about this and i've come to the conclusion that by making him tanky enough to be able to teamfight effectively he'd be broken op again. My major gripe with him right now is with his jungling and his early-mid ganking. To easy to mess with his jungle and his ganks are slowly getting outclassed and harder to pull off due to wards costs being reduced, everyone packing flash/ghost, low damage output especially on them tanky men who can just turn around and kill me while overextending like a boss when the champ is designed to keep them in line.

If you have any suggestions/comments/concerns feel free to post. Do I expect all these changes if any to happen, let alone at once.. hell no. Champions shouldn't be nerfed that way or buffed that way. Maybe hit 1 or two aspects and go from there and see how it works for a month and adjust as necessary. These are some of my suggested changes, take them with a grain of salt as i'm by no means a master of this game or an expert at balancing. Just listing some of my gripes about my favorite champions and the ways i've thought of fixing them so that maybe just maybe riot may look at one and possibly use it directly or as the basis for a future change. Who knows?

edit: fixed some typo's and grammatical errors and such.


CLARIFICATION (RED'S MAY WANT TO LOOK HERE): While I do have a lot of different Ideas on what we could do with shaco and such, and the fact that i'm kind of getting the feeling i'm being misinterpreted a bit.
Number 1 thing I want to have done with shaco. Less reliant on boxes. Make him more consistent as a jungler and less about spending 90 seconds setting them up and having them popped while hoping your team was there or that you got a kill from it.


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RVz

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04-19-2011

I love the threads you've been making and support you all the way as Shaco is also my favorite champion.
Support +1!


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Misno

Senior Member

04-19-2011

Reading all was long, but comfortable.

Only 2 things to say...

Good Job. +1


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CrazyBear

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04-19-2011

Glad you guys actually read it, was worried everyone would just skip to the tl;dr section.


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CrazyBear

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04-19-2011

Anyways some more ideas i've had:

Teamfight survivability:
Shaco's clone.. we all know this bad boy is squishy. We also know that ad champions in general don't really have "burst" outside of crits. Shaco relies on his deceive for a "false crit" and his two-shiv for burst, but is squishy enough he doesn't get a lot of auto-attacks in. So how about when shaco's clone is out, a percentage of the damage gets redirected to the clone? This would help his survivabilty in teamfights a bit and help his early game dragon control/soloing as generally you have the clone attack in the back while you tank it but if the damage is split between both of you it'd make it a lot less risky?

I'll use this post for adding more ideas as they come and that you guys contribute as well. Also please take these ideas with a grain of salt. My only real gripe with shaco is his jungling for the most part. These are ideas that i've thought of that seem to be getting a lot of attention lately like his teamfight presence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benalicious View Post

2) Increase the MR on shaco's boxes

Most teamfights are such AOE ****-storms that shaco's only utility/cc is destroyed without the other team even trying. It'd be one thing if there were counterplay going on where the enemy team was skillfully negating JitBs, but for example, if you are fighting a karthus, you will never be able to successfully use your JitBs because his defile is going to destroy them before they even activate. I've also seen a galio inadvertently destroy a nest of 6 boxes with one blind resolute smite. To set up that many boxes takes a several minute investment of time. You can't be farming, ganking, etc. I don't think it's a great design when one champion can counter such a huge investment with just 75 or so mana and a lucky guess.

Increasing the MR on boxes would make them slightly more reliable without increasing shaco's jungle or gank power, the two things that RIOT has tried not to buff too much.

Alternately, the boxes could be make invulnerable in that second or so before they turn invisible. Think about it in terms of Nocturne's Fear. It's an instant nuke, but a delayed CC, only if they stay in proximity. Making shaco's boxes invulnerable before they stealth would let people see them being dropped, and they would know that they need to not fight in that area unless they can afford the CC and still win. It still wouldn't be as strong as nocturne's CC, because his is an instant nuke while shaco's requires the people to stay in the vicinity of the boxes to be damaged.

I think either or both of these changes would go a long way toward making shaco a more viable pick without buffing his admittedly strong (very) early game.

BUG FIXES

As long as I'm making a thread about shaco, can something be done about his JitB targeting? It's very frustrating watching your boxes fear a champion and then immediately start attacking a near by minion. =(


@RIOT/Guinsoo: I'm curious what your thoughts are on shaco, and what you think may need to be done to him? Do these changes sound reasonable? Are changes in the pipeline?


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Clephtis

Senior Member

04-19-2011

Fully support this as a Shaco player. Most threads I see like this make him hilariously OP but this is well thought out, imo would make him balanced again.

Not that I think he is crazy UP right now, just a little bit on the UP side


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KStreetFighter2

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04-19-2011

holy, you beat mine in length for sure.


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Showdang

Senior Member

04-19-2011

when is your next novel coming out?


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CrazyBear

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04-19-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fane Teleri View Post
holy, you beat mine in length for sure.
I basically just took tidbits from what i posted in other shaco threads and threw them all together along with a few other ideas I had to share.


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CrazyBear

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04-19-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Showdang View Post
when is your next novel coming out?
Whenever I feel passionate enough about something else that i'm willing to type another wall of text.


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