Discussion on Effect of Improving Match Maker.

First Riot Post
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Karl the Pagan

PvP.net Engineer

04-15-2011
2 of 2 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furity View Post
4) If you incorporate APM, wards placed, etc... you can have a better measure of one's skill.. KDR isn't the best method to measure ladder placement, but it sure is a hell of a lot better than the summoner level you are (especially since exp boosts can be BOUGHT). If you look at my minion kills, takedowns, etc.. (APM If you guys had it) I guarantee you it would be above my level 25 average.. However, my W/L is still around 120ish to 110ish... I am not being arrogant, simply honest.. The way that ladder placements are measured at the moment is simply awful... It takes neither teamwork into account or player skill.. The only way to technically be "good" is if every game I played I had a premade of 5.. Arrangeable, but a complete hassle.
Good ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furity View Post
5) There is no tendency to focus on the individual game.. I am not saying a 20-5 Xin Zhao for sure played better than a 5-5 Jarvan.. It is all team based and context based.. However, a 0-5-0 Xin Zhao is exponentially more useless than a 0-5-10 Jarvan. Do you see my point? You completely underestimate the issue.. These aren't bad games or mistakes.. These are genuine bad players (Which can't be helped because we were all bad once) that are wrongly matched with better players.. Their overall win/loss might be positive but that doesn't mean jack squat when they don't place any wards, aren't useful to the team, have no assists, can't last hit (And in fact even mess up your ability to do so), constantly getting ganked -> which leads to you dying as you try to help them out, a 40 apm, not calling mia, and lacking COMMON LOGIC which higher level players DEVELOP from EXPERIENCE.
It might be interesting to normalize someones KDR based on the champion they use. If you could see that information what information would you get out of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furity View Post
6) One inherent problem in the game is the lack of separate servers... English is a required language on the U.N. as is French.. If it is a universal language in a Global Organization, it is only plausible that in a game like LoL, there should be different servers to be able to play with your country/language.. The language barrier of LoL is more than a problem, its an inherent flaw in the MM system.. How is it possible to have good coordination with your team if you cannot communicate with them? (Rhetorical question.. It isn't)). This isn't a hard issue to fix, but definitely a necessary one, I can't begin to count the number of games we had foreigners who spoke no English screw the game..

It might sound racist but it really isn't.. I am not American and I know how to speak English perfectly fine... it is essentially a worldwide spoken language (Required even in countries such as China)... Bottom line, separate servers for different countries fixes these issues...
In a 2v2 I was able to communicate pretty effectively with non-english speakers using pings and regular EU lingo. Is there no chance that non-textual communication can satisfy your needs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furity View Post
7) We understand this isn't a simple thing to fix.. However it needs a fix, not just a simple little tweaking. There are problems in the MM system in LoL which have more recently come to my attention (including leavers), which can be fixed with time. What the staff is currently doing is underplaying the issues, making them to be smaller than it actually is....
HoN has a better MM system, albeit very slow, but at least it is balaced.. 70 percent of the games on HoN are decent, balanced matches.. They have a PSR system, similar to an ELO system, and incorporation of single stats can't be so impossible that they actually crash the whole server.. Even w/o single stats there's a lot the staff can do which they aren't... Surely a lot of ideas would be better than the level system based on wins/losses that is in place right now...

All in All,
It's a delicate proposition at this point considering LoL's success. We don't want to say this will never happen and I can't say that I'm not with you.

If you wanted a designer post earlier you'd probably just get a big fat 'no', but with more developed arguments like these we're you're giving me something I can advocate for. Help us come up with the metrics that describe good play and I can put something forward.


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hampsterblade

Senior Member

04-15-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl the Pagan View Post
Good ideas.



It might be interesting to normalize someones KDR based on the champion they use. If you could see that information what information would you get out of it?



In a 2v2 I was able to communicate pretty effectively with non-english speakers using pings and regular EU lingo. Is there no chance that non-textual communication can satisfy your needs?



It's a delicate proposition at this point considering LoL's success. We don't want to say this will never happen and I can't say that I'm not with you.

If you wanted a designer post earlier you'd probably just get a big fat 'no', but with more developed arguments like these we're you're giving me something I can advocate for. Help us come up with the metrics that describe good play and I can put something forward.
Yay finally a RIOT post. It really is a question of what reflects skills in game. It isn't K/D and it obviously isn't W/L. I have seen a really bad twitch with 25/6/13, well because he's twitch, doesn't necessarily mean he was good. I play heimerdinger and it isn't uncommon to see me in a game with 4/6/13, doesn't mean I'm a bad player. Wards placed may be a good indicator, or maybe build quality ( I facepalmed when I saw another heimerdinger building spell vamp).

Obviously leaves need to be considered. i think leavers should be put in games with other leavers, give them a taste of their own medicine. So many games have been ruined by a player going afk, and after game I check to see he has 100 wins and 46 leaves. Obviously this is not well matched as I have 5 leaves that were due to connectivity issues.

I think final stats on character could be a good indicator. I usually have about 1000AP on heimerdinger at the end of my build. I've seen others who claim to be good with only 5 or 600 on their build.

What the system needs is balance. I think it should use a type of points system.
Say a system or algorithm is placed that takes in different factors and adds a set number of points for them.
It would be similar to ELO of course.
Each player starts with 0 points.
A win +100 points
A loss -100 points
A leave -500 points
Then we do some stats
+ K/D + 20 points + 1 point per + kill
- K/D - 20 points - 1 point per + death
+40 points if you are the only + K/D on your team. Happens way too much...
+10 points for each building destroyed, especially important for back door characters like Yi and Heimerdinger. I may die 4 times, but if I took a turret down each time, it was well worth it. Also I think the building points should be reworked considering damage per second dealt to the building over last hit. I'll back door a turret and don't get credit cause a minion took the last hit and i'm
Items
Minion kills should be based on character
+.2 * minions killed for farmer type such as heimerdinger
+.5 * minions killed for other types
well placed wards + 10 points
Quality of build based on character:
A few examples
AP char
+.001 * AP points
+.1 * Magic penetration points
tank char
+.01 * armor points
+.1 * magic resist points
AD char
+.01* AD points
+.1 * Attack speed points
It should incorporate use of certain items.
If vladamir is building bloodthirster - points
Also it should up points for moves like buying potions when you complete your build, something inexperienced players almost never do, or are even aware you can do. Buying oracle against eve or teemo should also be a bonus.
A bonus should also be in place for amount of time spent buffed. If vlad keeps a blue buff almost the entire game, awesome! If I get barron buff, but immediately die - points.
Also champion choice should come in to play. A points bonus for picking a harder to play character or being a good tank.

Such a system would not kill time to find a game since it would be mostly based on points
Players would simply be placed in a team with a similar point score and similar level. Notice I put a -500 on leaves. I think this is the most important aspect. Nothing is worse than a leaver. I think once your points score got extremely low, say -5000 you should have a 3-10 day temp ban in which you are forced to play tutorials. The players would be given opportunities to get their score back up to 0 by participating in certain games or events designed to improve skill or help leavers.

Skill points would be placed under your name in the queue as well as on friends lists. this would help to represent the new system is in place and the skills of each player. Also next to the skill points would be the letter S that would be dim if less than 50% of defeats are by surrender or lit up if more than 50% this would help match with similar playing styles as some people will surrender the first chance they get if they don't think they can manage, while others really enjoy playing full out until their nexus is gone even if they don't think they have a chance.

Now to avoid people trying to take advantage of such a system I think the points values for things should be kept under wraps, but the amount of points awarded should be marked at the end of the game like IP. With such a system it is still possible to move up in points with a loss if you played well. This gives a player an incentive to still try even if his team sucks.

In the beginning the system would still work using the current ELO system W/L and player level, but once you earn some points it would switch over to the points system working you into better matched games.

Also on the comment of language. I do believe it is important. it's not that non-text communication isn't important. It can also be very annoying. I've played too many games where 3/5 players are speaking another language and me and the other english player are left in the dark about what they are saying. They could very well be calling an mia but we have no idea, and we get ganked and the spanish people call us noobs. I much prefer playing with english players as it helps me with not only communication but also improves the fun of the game. Sometimes it's fun just to joke around and have fun with your team, and who knows you might want to friend them at the end. I would never friend someone who speaks another language, it's just not that fun.


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GG DraKe

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Senior Member

04-15-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl the Pagan View Post
Good ideas.



It might be interesting to normalize someones KDR based on the champion they use. If you could see that information what information would you get out of it?



In a 2v2 I was able to communicate pretty effectively with non-english speakers using pings and regular EU lingo. Is there no chance that non-textual communication can satisfy your needs?



It's a delicate proposition at this point considering LoL's success. We don't want to say this will never happen and I can't say that I'm not with you.

If you wanted a designer post earlier you'd probably just get a big fat 'no', but with more developed arguments like these we're you're giving me something I can advocate for. Help us come up with the metrics that describe good play and I can put something forward.
Yeah sorry I'm just lazy with writing, but at least now this guy has put everything into good structure for me!


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Flypped

Member

04-15-2011

Thanks for the acknowledgement .. Very useful in obtaining Riot's thought process.

In a 2v2 the language barrier might be able to be overcome through pings and lingo like GO or BACK, but in a 5v5 I've seen premades of 2-4 people where they all don't speak English.. We can get something done, but the lack of communication is definately an extreme problem in ganking, teamfights, etc... If i ping a spot in the map, they might not know if I am saying
"Hey get out of there, theres a gank"
or
"Hey lets go there and gank"

I mean the lack of communication isn't a game killer, but it definately creates inequalities in the few balanced games there are, separate servers fix this, but if it is too hard to implement, I really don't know what else to do... You can't just force them to learn english :P..

One more point I would like to add is that I have seen many leavers in games, and this is a pretty big source of complaint.. Especially when the leavers leave during the loading screen, a loss is still attributed, and the games end up 2v5 or 3v5.. (I won't talk about 4v5 because I feel it is a plausible game... However, the relms of 3v5 and 2v5 or god forbid even 1v5 aren't... Heres one of my earlier posts..

Quote:
So, I just played a 2 v 5 game today (how fun right?). 2 champions never connected to the game when the game started (As in, during the loading screen they never connected). Then, our Tristana QQs 5 minutes in and sits afk in fountain (I really dont blame her... a 3 v 5 is just pathetic).

Apparently I ended up with a loss in a 2 v 5, the system said 3 v 5 (2 leavers) even though during Laggy Servers, losses are excused...

My question is this.. At the very least, why is there not a remake system.. This wouldn't be difficult to implement, (have a unanimous vote to remake), it would decrease amount of games such as 3v5 and under, and definitely improve the overall PvP server of LoL.

People might complain that no one would want to remake the game if they are on the other team... And my response to them is, yea but it really doesn't hurt to try. In my experience I have found the LoL community much better than the DotA and HoN community. There are nice people willing to sympathize and remake a match if they were able to. Take a page from HoN (the remake system works great).

1) The vote must be unanimous (as in all players in the game, not on the team) under all circumstances (this stops any attempt to abuse the remake system)
2) Remake vote cannot be cast over 5 min (Again reducing abuse)
3) Remake is present in every Normal, Custom, and Ranked PvP game, NOT PvE games (such as Co-Op vs AI)

It isn't really hard to make, and there's no reason not to have it..
I think this would greatly improve game quality if it was made, for everyone...
I think this system would help.... Also, another idea from piggybacked from DotA is the leaver system they have in place

1) If there is a leaver before the game starts (IE in loading screen), the game continues as normal. If the player is unable to connect within 5 minutes (I feel 5 minutes is fair.. anything way longer than that just makes them feeders), the player is booted, the gold generated on the player is split, and the gold to be generated is also split among the remainder of the players
2) If there is a leaver in the middle of the game, after a 10 minute connection leeway (enough for major computer crashes, etc,) the player is then booted and the items are left in the fountain, and the gold on the player that left is shared.. The Items can then be used by the remainder of the players and gold to be generated is split among the remainder of the players..

This copies from DotA's leaver system, albeit allowing for more time for connections. I think this will definitely balance the 4v5s there are, and in conjunction with the remake system, can definitely improve game play.

Also, I am really REALLY glad that you guys gave an acknowledgement of the laggy servers and the queue positioning problems.. It was a very humble move, and the 350 RP wasn't even needed, just an acknowledgement of the problem and knowing you guys are trying to fix it asap, but the 350 RP is a really good I guess, sincere apology.. Thanks for acknowledging mistakes, as we know not every game server is truly perfect (HoN rarely acknowledges its problems, but it takes humility to concede and actually work on the problem. +1 for Riot.


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GG DraKe

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

04-15-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furity View Post
Thanks for the acknowledgement .. Very useful in obtaining Riot's thought process.

In a 2v2 the language barrier might be able to be overcome through pings and lingo like GO or BACK, but in a 5v5 I've seen premades of 2-4 people where they all don't speak English.. We can get something done, but the lack of communication is definately an extreme problem in ganking, teamfights, etc... If i ping a spot in the map, they might not know if I am saying
"Hey get out of there, theres a gank"
or
"Hey lets go there and gank"

I mean the lack of communication isn't a game killer, but it definately creates inequalities in the few balanced games there are, separate servers fix this, but if it is too hard to implement, I really don't know what else to do... You can't just force them to learn english :P..

One more point I would like to add is that I have seen many leavers in games, and this is a pretty big source of complaint.. Especially when the leavers leave during the loading screen, a loss is still attributed, and the games end up 2v5 or 3v5.. (I won't talk about 4v5 because I feel it is a plausible game... However, the relms of 3v5 and 2v5 or god forbid even 1v5 aren't... Heres one of my earlier posts..



I think this system would help.... Also, another idea from piggybacked from DotA is the leaver system they have in place

1) If there is a leaver before the game starts (IE in loading screen), the game continues as normal. If the player is unable to connect within 5 minutes (I feel 5 minutes is fair.. anything way longer than that just makes them feeders), the player is booted, the gold generated on the player is split, and the gold to be generated is also split among the remainder of the players
2) If there is a leaver in the middle of the game, after a 10 minute connection leeway (enough for major computer crashes, etc,) the player is then booted and the items are left in the fountain, and the gold on the player that left is shared.. The Items can then be used by the remainder of the players and gold to be generated is split among the remainder of the players..

This copies from DotA's leaver system, albeit allowing for more time for connections. I think this will definitely balance the 4v5s there are, and in conjunction with the remake system, can definitely improve game play.

Also, I am really REALLY glad that you guys gave an acknowledgement of the laggy servers and the queue positioning problems.. It was a very humble move, and the 350 RP wasn't even needed, just an acknowledgement of the problem and knowing you guys are trying to fix it asap, but the 350 RP is a really good I guess, sincere apology.. Thanks for acknowledging mistakes, as we know not every game server is truly perfect (HoN rarely acknowledges its problems, but it takes humility to concede and actually work on the problem. +1 for Riot.
Yes I do think these are good ideas, but I'm not sure about the booting a player from a game. I mean, sometimes people have legit reasons, and if your 10/0 carry disconnects and comes back after 20 min a game can still be salvaged. I'm for the splitting the gold + gold earned after a certain amount of time though, but if a player is disconnected he can just come back with no gold but all his items.

I still think a lot of the raging and leaving is due to players not being at the right elo, but some of your suggestions such as incorporating Kills assists deaths and wards placed etc. may just be what we need


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Flypped

Member

04-15-2011

True.... A leaver might be able to salvage the game, then again the items might help your team salvage it.. How bout if there was an option to boot the player after the alloted time? Therefore, if the team still wants to wait on a player, they have the choice to, but if they don't, they can votekick the afk/leaver player with a unanimous vote to get the items?

Yea, there are way more factors in these types of games than just KDR and W/L
Wards placed, I find, is a pretty big one, but then again some people play complete carries and don't want to ward.. APM i think is another big one, CK definately (measuring last hits) Assists may even be more important than kills in determining a player's "ELO".. I mean, no one of these is a good factor by itself, but all together you get a pretty good determination of the player's skill level (The only problem is that APM and Wards placed might be abusable - buy mass wards/constant clicking in a game).

I think a limit to wards/a "APM limit" at like 300 APM could fix this... Or, if the server could detect abnormal APM, like 900, or abnormal wards, like 50 every minute, then such stats could be made null and warnings and such could be given, then again its risky but i don't believe it's more risky than the current system in place..


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hampsterblade

Senior Member

04-16-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by hampsterblade View Post
Yay finally a RIOT post. It really is a question of what reflects skills in game. It isn't K/D and it obviously isn't W/L. I have seen a really bad twitch with 25/6/13, well because he's twitch, doesn't necessarily mean he was good. I play heimerdinger and it isn't uncommon to see me in a game with 4/6/13, doesn't mean I'm a bad player. Wards placed may be a good indicator, or maybe build quality ( I facepalmed when I saw another heimerdinger building spell vamp).

Obviously leaves need to be considered. i think leavers should be put in games with other leavers, give them a taste of their own medicine. So many games have been ruined by a player going afk, and after game I check to see he has 100 wins and 46 leaves. Obviously this is not well matched as I have 5 leaves that were due to connectivity issues.

I think final stats on character could be a good indicator. I usually have about 1000AP on heimerdinger at the end of my build. I've seen others who claim to be good with only 5 or 600 on their build.

What the system needs is balance. I think it should use a type of points system.
Say a system or algorithm is placed that takes in different factors and adds a set number of points for them.
It would be similar to ELO of course.
Each player starts with 0 points.
A win +100 points
A loss -100 points
A leave -500 points
Then we do some stats
+ K/D + 20 points + 1 point per + kill
- K/D - 20 points - 1 point per + death
+40 points if you are the only + K/D on your team. Happens way too much...
+10 points for each building destroyed, especially important for back door characters like Yi and Heimerdinger. I may die 4 times, but if I took a turret down each time, it was well worth it. Also I think the building points should be reworked considering damage per second dealt to the building over last hit. I'll back door a turret and don't get credit cause a minion took the last hit and i'm
Items
Minion kills should be based on character
+.2 * minions killed for farmer type such as heimerdinger
+.5 * minions killed for other types
well placed wards + 10 points
Quality of build based on character:
A few examples
AP char
+.001 * AP points
+.1 * Magic penetration points
tank char
+.01 * armor points
+.1 * magic resist points
AD char
+.01* AD points
+.1 * Attack speed points
It should incorporate use of certain items.
If vladamir is building bloodthirster - points
Also it should up points for moves like buying potions when you complete your build, something inexperienced players almost never do, or are even aware you can do. Buying oracle against eve or teemo should also be a bonus.
A bonus should also be in place for amount of time spent buffed. If vlad keeps a blue buff almost the entire game, awesome! If I get barron buff, but immediately die - points.
Also champion choice should come in to play. A points bonus for picking a harder to play character or being a good tank.

Such a system would not kill time to find a game since it would be mostly based on points
Players would simply be placed in a team with a similar point score and similar level. Notice I put a -500 on leaves. I think this is the most important aspect. Nothing is worse than a leaver. I think once your points score got extremely low, say -5000 you should have a 3-10 day temp ban in which you are forced to play tutorials. The players would be given opportunities to get their score back up to 0 by participating in certain games or events designed to improve skill or help leavers.

Skill points would be placed under your name in the queue as well as on friends lists. this would help to represent the new system is in place and the skills of each player. Also next to the skill points would be the letter S that would be dim if less than 50% of defeats are by surrender or lit up if more than 50% this would help match with similar playing styles as some people will surrender the first chance they get if they don't think they can manage, while others really enjoy playing full out until their nexus is gone even if they don't think they have a chance.

Now to avoid people trying to take advantage of such a system I think the points values for things should be kept under wraps, but the amount of points awarded should be marked at the end of the game like IP. With such a system it is still possible to move up in points with a loss if you played well. This gives a player an incentive to still try even if his team sucks.

In the beginning the system would still work using the current ELO system W/L and player level, but once you earn some points it would switch over to the points system working you into better matched games.

Also on the comment of language. I do believe it is important. it's not that non-text communication isn't important. It can also be very annoying. I've played too many games where 3/5 players are speaking another language and me and the other english player are left in the dark about what they are saying. They could very well be calling an mia but we have no idea, and we get ganked and the spanish people call us noobs. I much prefer playing with english players as it helps me with not only communication but also improves the fun of the game. Sometimes it's fun just to joke around and have fun with your team, and who knows you might want to friend them at the end. I would never friend someone who speaks another language, it's just not that fun.
Please read this over and tell me what you think. I know it's really long, but I proposed a lot of good things in there.


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Flypped

Member

04-16-2011

I like the idea of build incorporation, but the only problem with that is it might force players to build champions a certain way.. I'm not saying you should build a bloodthirster on Vlad, but I have seen tanky master Yi with atmas, an AP pantheon and so on... If the win,loss,kdr, point system (I like the buildings destroyed), can potentially work, but how would you classify an ad vs ap? So is Ezreal AP or AD? See what I mean?

Great ideas though :P. (Leaver might be too harsh.. What if theres like a power outage or such? They have to win 5 times to get it back? I would say they get the loss if the team loses, and DON'T get the win if the team wins, and a -100 to -200 points.. So, in total they get -200 or -300...


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hampsterblade

Senior Member

04-16-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furity View Post
I like the idea of build incorporation, but the only problem with that is it might force players to build champions a certain way.. I'm not saying you should build a bloodthirster on Vlad, but I have seen tanky master Yi with atmas, an AP pantheon and so on... If the win,loss,kdr, point system (I like the buildings destroyed), can potentially work, but how would you classify an ad vs ap? So is Ezreal AP or AD? See what I mean?

Great ideas though :P. (Leaver might be too harsh.. What if theres like a power outage or such? They have to win 5 times to get it back? I would say they get the loss if the team loses, and DON'T get the win if the team wins, and a -100 to -200 points.. So, in total they get -200 or -300...
yeah, I thought about that after. I actually thought of a better system for leaves based on percentage. The points for a leave should be based on leaves per month and incremented very quickly. 1 free leave per month, some people do have legitimate reasons for leaving. After that I would say -100 for the second leave and increment faster after that, 300 for the third 600 for the 4th and 1000 for each subsequent leave. If you are leaving more than 5 games per month, you are the kind of player who makes this game not fun.


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Dabeed

Member

04-16-2011

In my opinion, incorporating builds is a waste of time to code in. The player's build has a very large impact on their success, so if you really can't build your character properly, your end score will likely reflect that. You might get lucky once in a while, but if overall the scores will still reflect a person's bad choice in builds, so that's not something you'd have to put in (at least from what i've seen thus far).

However, I do like the idea of points based on:
K/D ratio
Win
Loss
Leaves
Buildings

I don't really think minion kills should matter as much, just because that's also something that would likely be reflected in the above few point. However, the minions kills AND all the above statistics are already displayed at the end of each match, so if it's just grabbing an extra piece of information I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Edit: Also, for premades - just take the score from the highest person and use that as a ceiling for the highest score on the other team +/- a variance just so matches can actually be found. I've been in too many games with level 30s when I was still 17 or so, but the 30s decided to queue with people under 10, thus ruining my game. =[