@Riot and Morello: Game Balance

First Riot Post
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Pr0phetEzekiel

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Senior Member

04-06-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by wallstop View Post
I keep seeing this, this "Cho is a high elo problem, you wouldn't understand."

I'm high elo. 2k have been 1900+ since November 2010~, I play solo queue, and queue up with and against some of the highest ranked teams for ESL in arranged fives on a daily basis.

Cho is not a problem at all. I hardly ever seen Cho picks. Teemo, Renekton, Nocturne and Ryze are all significantly more played, more "over powered", and more generic (re: can fit a wider range of team comps). Even Urgot is a generally(pretty much always) stronger pick then Cho.

He isn't a problem because of his long cooldowns, the skillshot nature of his rupture/silence, and the requirement of farming. Singed will pose a much greater threat to any team if he were to get as much farm as a Cho'Gath needs in order to be a problem.

The main thing here is that Cho'Gath is a solid counter to Alistar (true damage through ult, silence when he closes in on your team). With the popularity of Alistar on the rise (and has been for awhile), there have been more Cho'Gath picks. But these aren't 1:1, and again, I rarely see Cho picks (1 in 5-10 games) There's really no reason to pick Cho if there isn't an Alistar on the enemy team.

Where are you getting this data from?
I really would appreciate a Morello reply on this.


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Doriantv

Member

04-06-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by wallstop View Post
I really would appreciate a Morello reply on this.
As would I. I mean, it would be easy to discount HotshotGG raging about Cho'Gath, but it's quite another to hear a High Elo player tell us what we already knew: Cho'Gath wasn't that bad before the nerfs.

In fact, he was considered trash tier for the longest time until I think the Alienware Finals, where HotshotGG played him to great effect.


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Rodimus Prime

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Senior Member

04-07-2011

FYI: Cho is still a bit out of balance.


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Classick

Game Designer

04-07-2011
2 of 2 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by wallstop View Post
I keep seeing this, this "Cho is a high elo problem, you wouldn't understand."

I'm high elo. 2k have been 1900+ since November 2010~, I play solo queue, and queue up with and against some of the highest ranked teams for ESL in arranged fives on a daily basis.

Cho is not a problem at all. I hardly ever seen Cho picks. Teemo, Renekton, Nocturne and Ryze are all significantly more played, more "over powered", and more generic (re: can fit a wider range of team comps). Even Urgot is a generally(pretty much always) stronger pick then Cho.

He isn't a problem because of his long cooldowns, the skillshot nature of his rupture/silence, and the requirement of farming. Singed will pose a much greater threat to any team if he were to get as much farm as a Cho'Gath needs in order to be a problem.

The main thing here is that Cho'Gath is a solid counter to Alistar (true damage through ult, silence when he closes in on your team). With the popularity of Alistar on the rise (and has been for awhile), there have been more Cho'Gath picks. But these aren't 1:1, and again, I rarely see Cho picks (1 in 5-10 games) There's really no reason to pick Cho if there isn't an Alistar on the enemy team.

Where are you getting this data from?
Cho'gath has not always been the most popular pick, but that has to do with the fact that he's just a difficult champion to play. His gap closer is a moderately hard to land skillshot that must be landed in most scenarios to make Cho'gath effective. This is a disincentive for players to be willing to play this character considering they could miss his skill shots, similar to why Blitzcrank is not consistently used but is very strong.

Pre-Nerfs Cho'gath was unstoppable in a solo lane with a few exceptions, he could simply spam his silence ability over and over while last hitting and was irremovable from lane. The outcome of this was a Cho'gath who was 2x tankier than anyone in your game, and could instantly kill a squishy character in a single rotation with zero offensive items. All while having an AOE stun/silence. In other words, when in the right hands Cho'gath was just too good. He was consistently used by certain players in high ELO and in tournaments and was simply putting out too much damage for how much utility and tank he brings in comparison to his counterparts.

As far as his popularity in high ELO's, sure he was not used as much as other champions. That does not mean he was not stronger than most of them, he is just much harder to play. Post nerfs I have seen him used consistently in ESL over the last two weekends and I have had PMs from multiple players who were in those games saying Cho'gath is still too strong. I also still see Cho'gath in a lot of my games, and he generally always does well. To wrap this up, I don't think that a champion who is strong when the right player is using it should always nerfed, the bottom line is he was TOO strong in the right hands for what he brought in comparison to other choices. When it comes to the tanky DPS problem, Cho'gath was one of the worst offenders, and has been for a very long time.


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Corpse Princess

Senior Member

04-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by olyoxen View Post
this. and yea tristana is a little UP now i believe.
So is Miss Fortune. :/

Now the OP ranged carries = Ashe and Corki and Urgot.


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Eninya

Senior Member

04-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentiment View Post
So is Miss Fortune. :/

Now the OP ranged carries = Ashe and Corki and Urgot.
I'd consider Caitlyn in the top ranged carries.

With the "Tanky DPS" meta starting to fall back, what is to happen to AP/casters? I feel some AP champions simply don't stand as well as AD champions. With Last Whisper being reverted back to attack speed (what I've heard), what will be keeping AP able to counter tanks/magic resistance stackers? Void Staff is a great choice, but it's also not substantial in its own right.

I main Akali and Katarina and I feel that Void Staff is overshadowed immensely by a late game Lich Bane, whereas, if you're in a strong lead, buying an early Void Staff prevents any real measure of countering a powerful/fed AP carry. (I feel AD champions are able to acquire larger amounts of armor penetration through more widely flexible builds while AP typically has to make a "do or die" choice in regards to countering defensive itemizing.)


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Abhimanu

Senior Member

04-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Classick View Post
Cho'gath has not always been the most popular pick, but that has to do with the fact that he's just a difficult champion to play. His gap closer is a moderately hard to land skillshot that must be landed in most scenarios to make Cho'gath effective. This is a disincentive for players to be willing to play this character considering they could miss his skill shots, similar to why Blitzcrank is not consistently used but is very strong.

Pre-Nerfs Cho'gath was unstoppable in a solo lane with a few exceptions, he could simply spam his silence ability over and over while last hitting and was irremovable from lane. The outcome of this was a Cho'gath who was 2x tankier than anyone in your game, and could instantly kill a squishy character in a single rotation with zero offensive items. All while having an AOE stun/silence. In other words, when in the right hands Cho'gath was just too good. He was consistently used by certain players in high ELO and in tournaments and was simply putting out too much damage for how much utility and tank he brings in comparison to his counterparts.

As far as his popularity in high ELO's, sure he was not used as much as other champions. That does not mean he was not stronger than most of them, he is just much harder to play. Post nerfs I have seen him used consistently in ESL over the last two weekends and I have had PMs from multiple players who were in those games saying Cho'gath is still too strong. I also still see Cho'gath in a lot of my games, and he generally always does well. To wrap this up, I don't think that a champion who is strong when the right player is using it should always nerfed, the bottom line is he was TOO strong in the right hands for what he brought in comparison to other choices. When it comes to the tanky DPS problem, Cho'gath was one of the worst offenders, and has been for a very long time.
I hear what you're saying. I don't play at that ELO and I'll defer on that count to you and wallstop, but the logical question that follows is..

If this champion was/is overpowered, why are we still seeing bans on Rammus/Amumu/Shen prior to Cho'gath? Clearly, perception among top ELO brackets, where these banning patterns show up, is that Cho'gath is still a worse off than those tanks. Are those three banned in so many games that you simply can't evaluate the 'power' of those champions in a comparable fashion? Does someone at Riot simply think the playerbase is deluded and that the three most commonly banned tanks have some easy countering mechanism we don't yet know of?

Given the choice between Shen and pre-nerf Cho, I would have taken Shen most days. I don't understand why Cho would be nerfed before Shen.


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Beatus

Member

04-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by gluecks View Post
Still too strong? I highly have to disagree here.

While I like the slight buff on his E, it's actually counterproductive. It's useful to lasthit in laning, but when you level it up during laning the lane gets pushed hard and you'll be ganked from behind. Thus most players, including me, get 1 point of it at level 2 or 4 and then never again until Q and W are maxed out.
In late-game his E is pretty much irrelevant because a Cho'Gath needs to land the Q skillshots and silence as many enemies as possibe with one W.

I can live with the changes on his passive even though they hurt pretty **** hard, especially the halfed mana-gain on the passive (what happened to the "babysteps" there when nerfing things?).

The nerf on his Feast damage is brutal, really brutal..that's taking away 25% of the damage ("babysteps?").
Sure the AP ratio got increased a bit, but you'd have to get 300 AP to only just get the damage it dealt before without any AP.
The increased AP ratio could be neat, if AP Chogath was viable in high elo, which it isn't.

Imho all changes are justifyable to some extent except the feast nerf. Top players like HotshotGG agree with it too.
Unfortunately, player feedback is not taken into consideration when nerfing/buffing a champion. Teemo, for example, is going to be nerfed because Shurelia don't know how to play against him.


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Alaric11

Senior Member

04-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Classick View Post
Cho'gath has not always been the most popular pick, but that has to do with the fact that he's just a difficult champion to play. His gap closer is a moderately hard to land skillshot that must be landed in most scenarios to make Cho'gath effective. This is a disincentive for players to be willing to play this character considering they could miss his skill shots, similar to why Blitzcrank is not consistently used but is very strong.

Pre-Nerfs Cho'gath was unstoppable in a solo lane with a few exceptions, he could simply spam his silence ability over and over while last hitting and was irremovable from lane. The outcome of this was a Cho'gath who was 2x tankier than anyone in your game, and could instantly kill a squishy character in a single rotation with zero offensive items. All while having an AOE stun/silence. In other words, when in the right hands Cho'gath was just too good. He was consistently used by certain players in high ELO and in tournaments and was simply putting out too much damage for how much utility and tank he brings in comparison to his counterparts.

As far as his popularity in high ELO's, sure he was not used as much as other champions. That does not mean he was not stronger than most of them, he is just much harder to play. Post nerfs I have seen him used consistently in ESL over the last two weekends and I have had PMs from multiple players who were in those games saying Cho'gath is still too strong. I also still see Cho'gath in a lot of my games, and he generally always does well. To wrap this up, I don't think that a champion who is strong when the right player is using it should always nerfed, the bottom line is he was TOO strong in the right hands for what he brought in comparison to other choices. When it comes to the tanky DPS problem, Cho'gath was one of the worst offenders, and has been for a very long time.
1. Yes he was basically unstoppable in his lane, so you nerfed it which is fine, but then you nerfed late game feast. wtf

2. cho is not 2x tankier than anyone. cho farms better than other tanks because he has no inate defense, and does not scale offensively with defense stats like other tanks.(ie armor adding to the damage of his spells like malphite). This means he HAS to use all his cash on tank items if he wants to be as tough as the other tanks. Which means his base stats HAS to be better than other tanks, since he doesn't scale AT ALL.



I don't mind that Cho gets a nerf, I mind that the ******s at riot claim to use baby steps while nerfing 3 abilities and 2 of his base stats in one patch. I am FORCED to believe that you are completely incompetent, or shameless liars. And now you are doing the same thing to Teemo, just like you did to dinger, garen, ezreal, gragas, shaco, twitch, and like 5 other champions.

And when we point out that you are overnerfing something you reply "no, stfu its all about high elo play you suck and don't know what you are talking about you lowbie". It is unbearably frustrating, like talking to a brick wall. A very dissmissive and condescending brick wall.


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godhunter1053

Senior Member

04-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIalaric View Post
1. Yes he was basically unstoppable in his lane, so you nerfed it which is fine, but then you nerfed late game feast. wtf

2. cho is not 2x tankier than anyone. cho farms better than other tanks because he has no inate defense, and does not scale offensively with defense stats like other tanks.(ie armor adding to the damage of his spells like malphite). This means he HAS to use all his cash on tank items if he wants to be as tough as the other tanks. Which means his base stats HAS to be better than other tanks, since he doesn't scale AT ALL.



I don't mind that Cho gets a nerf, I mind that the ******s at riot claim to use baby steps while nerfing 3 abilities and 2 of his base stats in one patch. I am FORCED to believe that you are completely incompetent, or shameless liars. And now you are doing the same thing to Teemo, just like you did to dinger, garen, ezreal, gragas, shaco, twitch, and like 5 other champions.

And when we point out that you are overnerfing something you reply "no, stfu its all about high elo play you suck and don't know what you are talking about you lowbie". It is unbearably frustrating, like talking to a brick wall. A very dissmissive and condescending brick wall.
Do you mean to say that cho is now unusable? Because that is in no way true. The fact that he is still a fine tank shows that the nerfs did at least part of what they were intended to do. They brought him to an equal playing field with others. Even a cho with no items brings the utility of an AOE knockup and an AOE silence as well as a fair sized true damage nuke. A farmed cho just sits in your team causing a bit of chaos and making your dps afraid to continue a fight if at half health.

What they did was make is just a bit trickier to get farmed enough to sit in the middle of your team. And thats what they've explained. Several times. They have admitted to overnerfing certain champs and given apologies for some (garen, dinger, ez, panth), and reasons for others (stealth mechanic as is makes it too complex to balance twitch). They posted the proposed teemo nerfs that everyone is having a field day over, and they don't appear to be that bad.

Riot has answered most question asked of them. If you don't like the answer, I'm sorry, but they gave you an honest answer, even if you don't believe them.