[Essay] Snowballing - Why DotA had it right and LoL is still learning

First Riot Post
12345612 ... 18
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Charmicarmicarmicat

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrickyCat View Post
I feel that Dota snowballs much worse than LoL for the simple reason that when you die in HoN you lose gold.

Just about all your points are jsut as valid for dota too. If a melee carry gets a good first blood/double kill early game, it can spell certain doom.

Not only does killing an Opponent in HoN give you gold, you're taking away the opponent's ability to keep up at all with items.

So say you kill someone in Dota, you gain 280g, they lose 200g. The net worth of that exchange is essentially 580 gold for one kill. And now you gain about a minute and a half of farm, and he just lost a minute of farm.
This is mostly just an issue when you go for big items like Radiance. FOr the most part you just buy minor items from the lane as you farm the gold, and there is even a sideshop you can use.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Malak al Maut

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
We are also going to make a new 3 lane map that is larger, has less cross-map connectivity (so that there is higher cost to 5 man roam, and less shutdown of the farming/laning phase via the first tower being down), etc.



but being super carry annie or super carry corki once in a while gets a player through the 8 defeat in a row streak they hit the next day.
Man, I love you.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

h3w0

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charmicarmicarmicat View Post



Is it? I'm not too sure. While you do less damage from skills, an auto attack deals alot of damage early in the game. If anything, it goes both ways and should not be so heavily rewarded. After all, sometimes you survive with just 50 hp yet the difference between success or failure is big.

Also thanks for being the first to reply
I'd say it is harder to get early kills. Pre higher levels its not hard at all to be constantly aware of your enemy champions potential spell burst in your lane, and hopefully you get missing calls. Killing someone 1v1 mid with no help is much harder to pull off than mid game ganking/rotating.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mpalm

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charmicarmicarmicat View Post

Suggestions

  • Lower gold and exp gain from hero kills at levels 1-6
  • Higher gold gain from creeps and jungle from levels 6-18
  • Nerf Flash as an escape and move the first towers further apart from eachother
  • Rework snowball items, in particular Mejai's
  • Other things that give incentive to split up, farm creeps etc.
I definitely agree with many of the points you make. The lack of Town Portal really bugs me. If you are low health in a pushed lane you simply cannot leave it. If you bluepill and didn't take teleport as a summoner ability, by the time you run back early game your tower is either down or 85% destroyed. You can't stay to defend your lane because tower diving is made simple thanks to no cover around your towers.

Dota has mazes surrounding towers, so if you are low on health and get tower dived you can juke in the forest and hope to at least kill one of them with a good stun / tower damage. In this game you are a sitting duck. So you either die to a tower dive or you bluepill and allow them to take tower giving them a huge roaming advantage and control of neutrals in that area. This could be helped with town portals or better cover around towers, or both.

This game doesn't cater to strong play by an individual at all. If your teammates feed the even a few kills early game chances are you are going to lose because this game turns into a 5v5 very quickly. Once the other team gains the advantage, they push down a tower and kill dragon, giving them even more of an advantage.

You might have been tearing up middle by yourself, but that means nothing in a 5v5 team fight (and as you said, most fights are 5v5). Your team is most likely 2-3 levels below the other team due to dragon and tower kills and no snowball item will save you in team fights... but it will make the other team even stronger, drastically decreasing your chances for a comeback. You could be doing great, but what can you do when your one lane fed a bit early on, lost a tower, and gave up dragon control (all these things lead to the other team having higher levels and more gold). No snowball item can save you, so obviously these items (which I thought were meant to promote strong individual play) just cater to the winning team.

Dota/HoN both have a lot of great early game items that help remedy early deaths. Cheap items that give moderate stat bonuses, items that charge up heals, bottles that can give you back mana/health in key situations. Half the time in this game i'm saving for some 1500+ gold item because there just aren't any better options.

The map size is also far too small for 5v5... but I've been saying this forever. It should be a 4v4 map or increased in size.

Also, I wish this game had more strategic activated items. I think they add a lot more depth of strategy. Almost every single champion in this game of the same class uses basically the same build. When is the last time you haven't seen a caster with a Rod of Ages and Mejai? Or a Physical Carry without Last Whisper / IE?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zileas

VP of Game Design

02-15-2010
2 of 2 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrickyCat View Post
I feel that Dota snowballs much worse than LoL for the simple reason that when you die in HoN you lose gold.

Just about all your points are jsut as valid for dota too. If a melee carry gets a good first blood/double kill early game, it can spell certain doom.

Not only does killing an Opponent in HoN give you gold, you're taking away the opponent's ability to keep up at all with items.

So say you kill someone in Dota, you gain 280g, they lose 200g. The net worth of that exchange is essentially 580 gold for one kill. And now you gain about a minute and a half of farm, and he just lost a minute of farm.
We tried this, and it sucked in LoL. It actually causes TEAM snowballing, beacuse this anti-snowball mechanic generally gets distributed across your team. We felt that beacuse we didn't want team snowballing, we didn't want this mechanic. Plus its negative reinforcement, when we could just give a greater positive reinforcement should it be required.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

h3w0

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Lack of town portal is a great addition I think. Do you really want to deal with whole teams tping in to a tower every single time you try to push or gank a lane? It puts much more pressure on peoples laning skills than relying on their whole team to jump in and save them.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

blurrycloud

Senior Member

02-15-2010

why not just reduce the total experience gained from killing heroes?
say a general 20% nerf to hero kill exp.

this way, the lane the hero that gets the first kill wouldn't be 1-2 levels higher than the dead hero

the mid lane to side lane experience gap needs to be reduced as welll

currently, if the mid lane feeds, its almost always gg, as the mid winning hero will be 2-4 levels higher depending on how early the sides come to help

but because the mid lane is so short, a cautious player will just hover slightly in front of his tower, and nothing can be done about it

the only downside is maybe a tad longer games, maybe... as you don't need to be level 18 to end games


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

WhitemageofDOOM

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Our philosophy on this issue is that individual snowballing is good, and team snowballing is bad. Right now, team snowballing occurs too much -- one super carry twitch is a lot easier to handle than 5 guys who are 3 levels higher than each of you.

We are going to make some experience table tweaks to reduce team snowballing without hurting individual snowballing much. We are also going to make a new 3 lane map that is larger, has less cross-map connectivity (so that there is higher cost to 5 man roam, and less shutdown of the farming/laning phase via the first tower being down), etc.

We wont be nerfing snowball items. Emotional highs from the game you super carried make this genre sticky. We removed it too much in the beta, and it cost us. Sorry, but being super carry annie or super carry corki once in a while gets a player through the 8 defeat in a row streak they hit the next day.

I'm on the fence about early gold for kills. It's been something we have been talking about, for the reason you cite. OF course, an early kill is also harder than a late kill.
I can get behind that philosophy, emotional highs are an important thing, and individual snowballing has less effect.
I'd say nerf gold from kills, buff gold from creeps.
Then buff the (non-mejais) snowball items while adding an inherant snowball feature, players on killing streaks get +% damage done and -% damage taken from champions.

Also could change dragon to being a lesser team buff instead of a permanent exp/gold gain.

Both would work towards encouraging individual snowball(and accompanying emotional highs), while making snowballs easier to recover from because there's less permanent advantages.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zine

Senior Member

02-15-2010

I'd like to see all the snowball items brought up to the same level. Right now Megai's is 2-3 times better than SotO or Leviathan.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SonicTheHedgedawg

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Our philosophy on this issue is that individual snowballing is good, and team snowballing is bad. Right now, team snowballing occurs too much -- one super carry twitch is a lot easier to handle than 5 guys who are 3 levels higher than each of you.

We are going to make some experience table tweaks to reduce team snowballing without hurting individual snowballing much. We are also going to make a new 3 lane map that is larger, has less cross-map connectivity (so that there is higher cost to 5 man roam, and less shutdown of the farming/laning phase via the first tower being down), etc.

We probably will nerf flash.

We wont be nerfing snowball items. Emotional highs from the game you super carried make this genre sticky. We removed it too much in the beta, and it cost us. Sorry, but being super carry annie or super carry corki once in a while gets a player through the 8 defeat in a row streak they hit the next day.

I'm on the fence about early gold for kills. It's been something we have been talking about, for the reason you cite. OF course, an early kill is also harder than a late kill.
ETAs on any of these things Zileas?

loving all of that BTW


12345612 ... 18