Twisted Fate's Rework

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PrawnWonton

Senior Member

01-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhitemageofDOOM View Post
Gold card requires no skill, There is only ever one correct choice and that is gold card.
Hard to learn != skill.
Hardly always the best choice. Blue cards are excellent for smashing towers, dragon, super minions, or anything you want to beat on for an extended period of time. Red is kinda lame, though.

But anyways, TF doesn't need, nor should he get, a rework. He is fine the way he is. He is one of the squishiest of squishies. And if you don't want to get ganked by him, here is a tip: Don't stand around with low health alone. Same thing against Karthus. Or Eve. Or Shaco. Or Twitch. Or any number of characters. Never roam alone.

People KNOW they are fighting TF. And yet they still will sit around in a lane, alone, with next to no health, just hoping TF doesn't attack them. Then they come whining to the forums when they get ganked by TF. I have no sympathy.


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DotEleven

Senior Member

01-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrawnWonton View Post
Hardly always the best choice. Blue cards are excellent for smashing towers, dragon, super minions, or anything you want to beat on for an extended period of time. Red is kinda lame, though.

But anyways, TF doesn't need, nor should he get, a rework. He is fine the way he is. He is one of the squishiest of squishies. And if you don't want to get ganked by him, here is a tip: Don't stand around with low health alone. Same thing against Karthus. Or Eve. Or Shaco. Or Twitch. Or any number of characters. Never roam alone.

People KNOW they are fighting TF. And yet they still will sit around in a lane, alone, with next to no health, just hoping TF doesn't attack them. Then they come whining to the forums when they get ganked by TF. I have no sympathy.
Thank you for speaking up for TF. I main him and think he's fine.

People continuously whine but all I see is people pushing a tower with less than a quarter of their health. If you see Destiny on you and you're at low health, get your stun ready, if you don't have a stun, then your partner should get his stun ready. Get a couple of heal pots just in case. One second can make all the difference between a successful and failed TF gank.

As an AP TF, if you survive my Gold Card + Wild Card there's not much I can do until the CD is finished.


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Motas

Senior Member

01-17-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluetooth80291 View Post
Thank you for speaking up for TF. I main him and think he's fine.

People continuously whine but all I see is people pushing a tower with less than a quarter of their health. If you see Destiny on you and you're at low health, get your stun ready, if you don't have a stun, then your partner should get his stun ready. Get a couple of heal pots just in case. One second can make all the difference between a successful and failed TF gank.

As an AP TF, if you survive my Gold Card + Wild Card there's not much I can do until the CD is finished.
I agree with both of you, I actually think he's fine tho a remake would be nice, I still love him the way he is, maybe riot has just finally succumbed to enough "TF is OP" threads to get them to change him.

Either way, I'm still gonna main him when this is over


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Hey wanna du ma

Member

01-27-2010

Doesn't need a rework):
He's my favorite character to play! He's so fun!
Don't remake TF, please!


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VoodoĆ³

Senior Member

01-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Awesome View Post
I welcome the redesign with open arms, but am afraid of what changes might be made--Twisted Fate is powerful, to be sure, but taking away some of that power might also take away his other strong suit (no pun intended)--the fact that he's so fun to play. I play Twisted Fate frequently, and feel every game he's in, he's the strongest influence on the outcome of the game; I've thought a long time about why this is, and what should and shouldn't be changed about it.

I feel like Twisted Fate has been a problematic character for a long time because his core theme is "global influence"; he is the only champion in the game that is not limited by distance or time. His teleport grants him obvious instantaneous transport anywhere on the map, and his ultimate grants him supreme knowledge of the enemy's tactics. Wild Cards makes him one of the fastest champions for mowing down minions and pushing lanes, and Pick A Card is up there as one of the most potent and reliable disables in the game, not even factoring in his omniscience and omnipresence.

Considering that, in LoL as in all combat, time is of the essence, it could be said that Twisted Fate has the strongest abilities of all: where all other champions require time to act, and therefore give the opponent time to respond, Twisted Fate is able to act not just instantly and unpredictably, but without fear of retaliation due to his ability to observe enemy movements infallibly. A very smart man named Sun Tzu had something to say about what happens when you are always acting and the enemy is always rushing to keep up--and it doesn't end well for the other guys. If the legendary tactician played League of Legends, I imagine he'd probably play Cardmaster.

The problem with reworking Twisted Fate lies in the fact that he has the classic combination that is the kiss of death to game balance in any competitive game: not only is he extraordinarily powerful when played well, he is very, very fun to play. This means that not only will he be widespread, making his influence a dominating aspect of the metagame, but it's difficult to change him--how do you weaken an overpowered character without making him less fun? The key is to identify what aspects make him fun, and try and isolate them mechanically from what makes him too powerful.

A quick (and I use the term loosely) assessment of his features:

First, the ability to instantly travel anywhere. Not inherently flawed, because LoL is well balanced in the regard that there is a definite limit to what one man can do. It is not in Twisted Fate's mobility that the fault lies--which is good, because it's probably his most fun feature; this should probably stay as-is.

Second, the ability to rapidly and efficiently destroy minions, and harass at a distance. Again, no fundamental fault, as these are natural things for an omnipresent champion to be able to do; what good is the ability to be anywhere if you can't accomplish anything upon arrival?

Third, and most importantly, the ability to see where all enemies are infallibly. Definitely flawed, as this eliminates a large amount of skill for all parties involved: a bad Twisted Fate using Destiny isn't much worse than a good Twisted Fate using it--he gets the same effect either way, only differing in the timing; and, the enemy team has absolutely no way of avoiding the skill or anticipating its use, regardless of how good of players they are. Their best hope is to Cleanse immediately and hope the entire enemy team didn't notice them blip. This is all on top of the obvious detriment of instantly foiling any tactics the enemy employed in setting up an ambush, sneaking between lanes, etc., with the push of a single button.

I am generally less than fond of infallible tactical skills, because in nearly all competitive metagames, high-end players tend to gravitate to the most consistent tools, not necessarily the strongest--they try to eliminate random chance--and wherever possible, potential for enemy interference--so that they are able to minimize the possibility of failure. Twisted Fate, possessing an ability that can all but entirely eliminate the enemy's skill at positioning, ambushing, and maneuvering without fail and without regard to the magnitude of the enemy's skill--or lack thereof on the Cardmaster's part--clearly is high on the list of variable-eliminating champions. Sun Tzu say, the true champion is not he who charges into battle and later seeks to attain victory, but he who first puts himself beyond any possibility of defeat, then waits for his enemy to deliver unto him the opportunity to seize victory; once again, I think I know who would be his champion of choice.

For similar reasons to the above, I must say I strongly disapprove of Twisted Fate's fourth feature: the potential to deliver a hard disable flawlessly using Pick A Card. You cannot make an ability such that the magnitude of its effectiveness is so drastically affected by skill without asking if the ability would be balanced if someone could perform it flawlessly every time; in any game such as this, there will inevitably be a player capable of such perfection, almost regardless of the difficulty. Such is the case with Cardmaster, aggravated by the relative ease with which the skill may be mastered; any moderately experienced player might as well forego the roulette--the outcome is very seldom in doubt, and even less so when it really matters, considering Twisted Fate is probably sitting at spawn spinning away, far removed from the chaos of the battlefield, before making his grand entrance and delivering his grievous, gilded payload.

It is the all-too-lethal combination of a foolproof hard disable with ultimate mobility and reconnaissance that makes Twisted Fate into the monster he is. A player of moderate skill can use his abilities in such a combination to deliver an almost-certainly lethal payload to any enemy before they or their allies have significant opportunity to retaliate or defend themselves, even if they are far, far beyond the Cardmaster player in terms of skill. The amount of skill it takes to prevent a Cardmaster gank is far greater than the amount of skill it takes to perpetrate one--therein lies the imbalance.

Therefore, the change I would like to see to Twisted Fate: incorporate more skill into his foolproof abilities! I would like to see, for example, Destiny become a skill-oriented map reveal that a good Twisted Fate could use better than a bad one, and a good enemy team could anticipate or respond to better than a bad one. Perhaps it could be used like Clairvoyance, revealing a target area on the map, and slowing enemies revealed by it? This would allow the clever Twisted Fate player to make educated guesses to maximize Destiny's effects, while also allowing a clever team to reconsider how to move about out of sight, hiding in places the Twisted Fate is less likely to look.

In addition, Pick A Card needs to remain skill-based, not random, but it doesn't need to deliver a hard disable. Perhaps it could cycle through several suits, each offering a different disable--a silence, a slow, an armor/magic resist reduction, and a damage bonus + extra draw? I think this would be a good way of maintaining utility but implementing more skill--deciding which disable is best for the given target, acting around what disable you've been hit with, etc--either way, easily more interesting than the binary nature of a stun.

As I have said (at great and laborious length), I think he needs to be changed and welcome it, but I sincerely hope Riot decides to keep the things most distinguishing about Twisted Fate when they do so. And I sincerely hope somebody actually reads this monstrosity I've composed.
Beautiful post; quoted so hopefully more people will read it.


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Soller

Member

01-27-2010

TF is fine. He dies in like 2 hits unless he's grabbing some defensive items. Gate and Destiny can be obnoxious early game, but I don't think that's enough reason to rework him.

Red card could use a change to make it slightly more desirable to use but aside from that I'd rather see Warwick get some love.


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BangWow

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrawnWonton View Post
Hardly always the best choice. Blue cards are excellent for smashing towers, dragon, super minions, or anything you want to beat on for an extended period of time. Red is kinda lame, though.

But anyways, TF doesn't need, nor should he get, a rework. He is fine the way he is. He is one of the squishiest of squishies. And if you don't want to get ganked by him, here is a tip: Don't stand around with low health alone. Same thing against Karthus. Or Eve. Or Shaco. Or Twitch. Or any number of characters. Never roam alone.

People KNOW they are fighting TF. And yet they still will sit around in a lane, alone, with next to no health, just hoping TF doesn't attack them. Then they come whining to the forums when they get ganked by TF. I have no sympathy.
TF gets double kills on heroes with full HP.
Not just idiots.


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Tetrall Mors

Senior Member

01-27-2010

love the model and hate the people who play him. Most TF players are 1337 uber uber l33t players who care about nothing about balance and who only want to raise their ELO.

I am looking forward to not having to think, "Ok - so it exactly 15 seconds I gotta start playing like a weiner because TFs ult will be up and I don't wanna feed his annoying OP ways"

He's a great character design, but in a game where map control is king... he is OP like Pendragon's Shaco.


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lionheart5656

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Awesome View Post
I welcome the redesign with open arms, but am afraid of what changes might be made--Twisted Fate is powerful, to be sure, but taking away some of that power might also take away his other strong suit (no pun intended)--the fact that he's so fun to play. I play Twisted Fate frequently, and feel every game he's in, he's the strongest influence on the outcome of the game; I've thought a long time about why this is, and what should and shouldn't be changed about it.

I feel like Twisted Fate has been a problematic character for a long time because his core theme is "global influence"; he is the only champion in the game that is not limited by distance or time. His teleport grants him obvious instantaneous transport anywhere on the map, and his ultimate grants him supreme knowledge of the enemy's tactics. Wild Cards makes him one of the fastest champions for mowing down minions and pushing lanes, and Pick A Card is up there as one of the most potent and reliable disables in the game, not even factoring in his omniscience and omnipresence.

Considering that, in LoL as in all combat, time is of the essence, it could be said that Twisted Fate has the strongest abilities of all: where all other champions require time to act, and therefore give the opponent time to respond, Twisted Fate is able to act not just instantly and unpredictably, but without fear of retaliation due to his ability to observe enemy movements infallibly. A very smart man named Sun Tzu had something to say about what happens when you are always acting and the enemy is always rushing to keep up--and it doesn't end well for the other guys. If the legendary tactician played League of Legends, I imagine he'd probably play Cardmaster.

The problem with reworking Twisted Fate lies in the fact that he has the classic combination that is the kiss of death to game balance in any competitive game: not only is he extraordinarily powerful when played well, he is very, very fun to play. This means that not only will he be widespread, making his influence a dominating aspect of the metagame, but it's difficult to change him--how do you weaken an overpowered character without making him less fun? The key is to identify what aspects make him fun, and try and isolate them mechanically from what makes him too powerful.

A quick (and I use the term loosely) assessment of his features:

First, the ability to instantly travel anywhere. Not inherently flawed, because LoL is well balanced in the regard that there is a definite limit to what one man can do. It is not in Twisted Fate's mobility that the fault lies--which is good, because it's probably his most fun feature; this should probably stay as-is.

Second, the ability to rapidly and efficiently destroy minions, and harass at a distance. Again, no fundamental fault, as these are natural things for an omnipresent champion to be able to do; what good is the ability to be anywhere if you can't accomplish anything upon arrival?

Third, and most importantly, the ability to see where all enemies are infallibly. Definitely flawed, as this eliminates a large amount of skill for all parties involved: a bad Twisted Fate using Destiny isn't much worse than a good Twisted Fate using it--he gets the same effect either way, only differing in the timing; and, the enemy team has absolutely no way of avoiding the skill or anticipating its use, regardless of how good of players they are. Their best hope is to Cleanse immediately and hope the entire enemy team didn't notice them blip. This is all on top of the obvious detriment of instantly foiling any tactics the enemy employed in setting up an ambush, sneaking between lanes, etc., with the push of a single button.

I am generally less than fond of infallible tactical skills, because in nearly all competitive metagames, high-end players tend to gravitate to the most consistent tools, not necessarily the strongest--they try to eliminate random chance--and wherever possible, potential for enemy interference--so that they are able to minimize the possibility of failure. Twisted Fate, possessing an ability that can all but entirely eliminate the enemy's skill at positioning, ambushing, and maneuvering without fail and without regard to the magnitude of the enemy's skill--or lack thereof on the Cardmaster's part--clearly is high on the list of variable-eliminating champions. Sun Tzu say, the true champion is not he who charges into battle and later seeks to attain victory, but he who first puts himself beyond any possibility of defeat, then waits for his enemy to deliver unto him the opportunity to seize victory; once again, I think I know who would be his champion of choice.

For similar reasons to the above, I must say I strongly disapprove of Twisted Fate's fourth feature: the potential to deliver a hard disable flawlessly using Pick A Card. You cannot make an ability such that the magnitude of its effectiveness is so drastically affected by skill without asking if the ability would be balanced if someone could perform it flawlessly every time; in any game such as this, there will inevitably be a player capable of such perfection, almost regardless of the difficulty. Such is the case with Cardmaster, aggravated by the relative ease with which the skill may be mastered; any moderately experienced player might as well forego the roulette--the outcome is very seldom in doubt, and even less so when it really matters, considering Twisted Fate is probably sitting at spawn spinning away, far removed from the chaos of the battlefield, before making his grand entrance and delivering his grievous, gilded payload.

It is the all-too-lethal combination of a foolproof hard disable with ultimate mobility and reconnaissance that makes Twisted Fate into the monster he is. A player of moderate skill can use his abilities in such a combination to deliver an almost-certainly lethal payload to any enemy before they or their allies have significant opportunity to retaliate or defend themselves, even if they are far, far beyond the Cardmaster player in terms of skill. The amount of skill it takes to prevent a Cardmaster gank is far greater than the amount of skill it takes to perpetrate one--therein lies the imbalance.

Therefore, the change I would like to see to Twisted Fate: incorporate more skill into his foolproof abilities! I would like to see, for example, Destiny become a skill-oriented map reveal that a good Twisted Fate could use better than a bad one, and a good enemy team could anticipate or respond to better than a bad one. Perhaps it could be used like Clairvoyance, revealing a target area on the map, and slowing enemies revealed by it? This would allow the clever Twisted Fate player to make educated guesses to maximize Destiny's effects, while also allowing a clever team to reconsider how to move about out of sight, hiding in places the Twisted Fate is less likely to look.

In addition, Pick A Card needs to remain skill-based, not random, but it doesn't need to deliver a hard disable. Perhaps it could cycle through several suits, each offering a different disable--a silence, a slow, an armor/magic resist reduction, and a damage bonus + extra draw? I think this would be a good way of maintaining utility but implementing more skill--deciding which disable is best for the given target, acting around what disable you've been hit with, etc--either way, easily more interesting than the binary nature of a stun.

As I have said (at great and laborious length), I think he needs to be changed and welcome it, but I sincerely hope Riot decides to keep the things most distinguishing about Twisted Fate when they do so. And I sincerely hope somebody actually reads this monstrosity I've composed.
+9 quotes deserved to be quoted many times.

zomg -2!?!?!?!? how will i go on!?


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dredzach

Senior Member

01-27-2010

Destiny is the problem.

Plus, I think PAC is not fun. It makes me not want to play him to have to bother with that.