@Lyte - could I pick your brain for a sec?

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Hi Im Cheddix

Member

08-23-2014

Lyte is too busy posting chat logs, darn


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Frans Bauer

Member

08-23-2014

tldr


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Hi Im Cheddix

Member

08-23-2014

tldr: lyte explains toxicity and posts chat logs, but offers no real solution since individual chat bans seem to literally have no effect on the overall level of toxicity.


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ednortonwhatttt

Senior Member

08-23-2014

nice post, but won't get a blue response.


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Matthias9119

Senior Member

08-23-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Im Cheddix View Post
tldr: lyte explains toxicity and posts chat logs, but offers no real solution since individual chat bans seem to literally have no effect on the overall level of toxicity.
There's no way Riot can possibly remove every single person who ever behaves in a way that annoys you. They can't preemptively ban players before they act out. It's not feasible to manually investigate every report filed by tens of millions of daily players -- you have to have automated systems like Tribunal that establish a pattern of behavior, or else tons of innocent players get punished because they got a few false reports against them.

They've said they want to improve/enhance the honor system to provide better "carrots" rather than just the "stick" of bans/chat restrictions.

A major issue is that once you get rid of the handful of dedicated trolls just out to make people miserable, a large majority of "toxic" behavior comes from players who are normally fine. They're just having a bad day because of RL issues, or they got pushed and prodded by someone else until they snapped. You can't predict these in advance, and if you ban everyone who's ever had a bad day you won't have any players left.

I'm not saying Riot shouldn't keep trying or that they can't improve things further, but this isn't just "they're not trying hard enough" or "they don't know what's going on". Getting random people in a high-pressure situation to not be jerks to each other seems to not be the easiest thing to do.

Edit:

specific things Lyte has said they're doing Soon(TM):

1) Tribunal is being upgraded to hopefully be faster at punishing negative players while still being highly accurate. Hopefully it will also include improvements like logging pre- and post-game chat.

2) They have a new system coming to better punish ragequits and rage-AFKs.

3) They have a new system coming to automatically punish intentional feeding.

4) They're working on some sort of Ranked Team Builder system to (hopefully) cut down on pregame hostility when players can't get the roles they want.


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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08-23-2014
1 of 1 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Im Cheddix View Post
So as it has been stressed for many periods of time - where is the "low priority queue" that Dota 2 has? The game is no longer about reaching an optimal amount of players, LoL is worldwide, and world-known. There is no more marketing to little kids and "safe" players. It already is the most played game in the world. But Riot stresses on ensuring quality, so where is it. You have enough resources at your disposal to copy and paste chat logs, it's definitely enough to weed out the players so that they know they are what is wrong with the game sometimes.
You have some good points in your post; however, there's multiple topics being discussed. I'd like to focus on this one point first about "low priority queues."

I've done my fair share of work researching and even implementing these types of design solutions. We call them "Prisoner's Island," and other studios have called them "Alcatraz" or "Low Priority Queue." Here's the catch: Prisoner's Island design solutions are only effective for black and white, binary behaviors.

For example, Prisoner's Island works great for hacking offenses, because players know whether they are using hacked clients or not. Prisoner's Island works great for leaving/AFK offenses, because players know they ragequit a game, or AFK'd in a match. There's no subjectivity in these behaviors because it's very clear-cut.

But, what happens when you try to use Prisoner's Island design solutions for more nuanced behaviors such as verbal abuse? One, many offenders that get thrown into Prisoner's Island don't believe they belong there and look around them thinking, "What, that guy is way more toxic than I am, why am I here? The system is broken." Two, many offenders end up creating a new account because it's extremely difficult for nuanced behaviors like verbal abuse to improve in a Prisoner's Island scenario; after all, placing 10 volatile players highly vulnerable to toxic triggers or highly prone to initiative toxic behaviors means that no one is reforming or improving over time.

For nuanced player behaviors that require subjectivity and perspective, Prisoner's Island design solutions are ineffective.

---

Your next question might be, well, what about doing some kind of low priority queue for Leavers/AFKs in League of Legends then? The answer is, we're working on a new type of low priority queue that is more effective than simply making these players match against each other. When you use these types of designs, you simply force players to play through games where a majority of games just have 2-3 leavers and never finish. That's not a great experience and doesn't encourage reform, it just pisses players off especially if they were put in low priority queue for some reason they don't agree with.

When we're closer to launching the new LeaverBuster, we'll discuss our version of low priority queue, and why it does much better to encourage reform than traditional Prisoner's Island systems.


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MiKeOxBiG01

Junior Member

08-23-2014

Yea I agree with that subjective punishment thing. I have been chat restricted and banned for a few days in the past for 'verbal abuse'. Most of which starts with stuff like someone making 15 bad plays and throwing the game and I say something like "WTF are you doing???? That was the dumbest fu%$ing thing ever". I see people say things like this all the time and see people on stream saying things like that every day but if you say it to the wrong sensitive person or someone just trying to get back at you for calling them out, it turns into an election to see who gathers more people in game to antagonize and piss off the other and report them. It happens 1 game and then you join the next game with the same mentality and everything goes downhill.

I obviously know it's not positive to call someone an idiot or a ****** but I don't think it's a life changing insult either. To me, people are just being too sensitive and I don't totally understand how calling someone an idiot is comprehended as the same as calling a black person a racial slur or threatening to kill someone. Or even someone leaving over and over or intentionally feeding and goign 0/30. I know some people don't like bad language and some people take it differently than others but if it offends you......PUSH THE MUTE BUTTON??????


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Hi Im Cheddix

Member

08-23-2014

Welp, I wrote a response and clicked back on my browser.


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SpidermanHecarim

Senior Member

08-23-2014

You always post about low priority que and why it doesnt work, but why not post about everything else the OP had? It had a lot of excellent points about a lot of "toxicity" is just natural instinctive reactions.


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Dylanhero

Junior Member

08-23-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpidermanHecarim View Post
You always post about low priority que and why it doesnt work, but why not post about everything else the OP had? It had a lot of excellent points about a lot of "toxicity" is just natural instinctive reactions.
Toxicity being a instinctive reaction is not a good excuse for allowing it. Stealing is also an instinctive reaction that occurs when you want something someone else has, but that doesn't make it acceptable. In the OP he used a game with the "troll" Zyra as an example. Yes, it is a natural reaction to get angry about the other persons actions, but we hold humans to higher standards than we do rats and expect you to maintain a level head throughout the ordeal. Or at least keep the anger to yourself and not yell about it in chat.