Regarding 7/17 Varus PBE Change

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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

07-19-2014
6 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by lojician View Post
How much power does 5 ms usually translate to anyway? Like if you were to revert olaf on pbe and just stick his ms at 355 what would you expect it to do to his viability? Is it usually a noticeable difference for players or just something that occasionally tips the scales during chases and might cause a couple kill swing every few games?
From what we've seen it varies a lot depending on that champion's kit and role. On some that's not massively position dependent (not a primary target or heavily range constrained) it may not have too big an impact. ADCs on the other hand do tend to be pretty sensitive to MS changes. Vayne's a particularly good example of that, with even small changes to her movement speed translating into noticeable power differences.


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Dyonas

Senior Member

07-19-2014

Given your thoughts on Ashe I think this unlikely but I'm going to ask anyway. Is there anything you can do with her passive? I know it's a guaranteed crit every X seconds but compared to other ADC passives it feels very underwhelming.

For quick comparison I looked at some of the more seen ADCs.
Caitlyn - every 8 attacks (6 if in brush cover) she gets bonus damage
Corki - gets bonus true damage to everything
Jinx - gets excited after a kill, assist or tower kill
Lucian - double shot after using an ability
Tristana - increased range per level
Twitch - basic attacks add an true damage DoT element

Then you look at Ashe - when OUT of combat she gains stacks of focus and when they reach 100 her next basic attack will crit. At the very least you could change it so she gains stacks of focus whether in or out of combat but I'd settle for a completely new passive if there were ideas.


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lojician

Senior Member

07-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
From what we've seen it varies a lot depending on that champion's kit and role. On some that's not massively position dependent (not a primary target or heavily range constrained) it may not have too big an impact. ADCs on the other hand do tend to be pretty sensitive to MS changes. Vayne's a particularly good example of that, with even small changes to her movement speed translating into noticeable power differences.
Would the vayne thing just be because it increases her movement radius under stealth? If anything I'd think champions with repositioning skills would be affected less. Or is it speed effectiveness scaling inversely with range or something?


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Dyonas

Senior Member

07-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by lojician View Post
Would the vayne thing just be because it increases her movement radius under stealth? If anything I'd think champions with repositioning skills would be affected less. Or does speed effectiveness scale inversely with range or something?
Vayne gains speed moving toward enemy champions within a certain and quite large radius. I think it's set but any increase to base speed would just aid her chasing down stragglers.


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ProfDrDeath

Senior Member

07-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyrone Darius View Post
So is Varus able to get the 5 MS he lost before or no?
Only if his range is decreased...which would be a trade I don't like.

He has already a higher base range-to-MS ratio than most Marks(wo)men/Ranged ADCs with 575 and 330, respectively.

Corki, Ezreal, MF, Tristana, Jinx, they all have lower range and less MS.


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Dokusei

Senior Member

07-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
From what we've seen it varies a lot depending on that champion's kit and role. On some that's not massively position dependent (not a primary target or heavily range constrained) it may not have too big an impact. ADCs on the other hand do tend to be pretty sensitive to MS changes. Vayne's a particularly good example of that, with even small changes to her movement speed translating into noticeable power differences.
meanwhile to this day garen's ult is still on cool down


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

07-19-2014
7 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by lojician View Post
Would the vayne thing just be because it increases her movement radius under stealth? If anything I'd think champions with repositioning skills would be affected less. Or is it speed effectiveness scaling inversely with range or something?
Not completely certain, couple of things I'm inclined to attribute it to though. Vayne doesn't have any way of projecting influence beyond her auto attack range. Combine that with the way ADC trading/CSing/harassment bot often skirts just around AA ranges (to the extent that a 550 AA versus a 575 AA is a really noticeable difference) and a small difference in MS can make the difference between being able to land or avoid a hit or not. Similarly kills or escapes will often come down to a single AA's worth of health, often just barely landed or escaped.

Agree with your point that dashes/blinks should be expected to reduce such impacts. In Vayne's case however I think the factors amplifying movement sensitivity are strong enough to outweigh the mobility she gets from her kit though.


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Neo Cyrus

Senior Member

07-19-2014

Is there any internal discussion going regarding the power balance now that assassins have been all but removed? I personally think the rise of a lot of issues is due to the fact that every major assassin has been nerfed one at a time. Some into oblivion (see Diana).

The only one still around seems to be Akali due a lot to the pink changes. And I recall only seeing her in the competitive scene once this split.


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BlazingSalvo

Senior Member

07-19-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Couple of thoughts behind the change we're testing:

1. As a non mobile ADC giving Varus a bit more safety/control via his ult being up more reliably's an appropriate place to offer a bit of power.

2. Following on from that one of the prime reasons to pick Varus in a team comp is if you want crowd control from your marksman slot (with a focus on team disruption, and greater reliability as a counterinitiate, in contrast to Ashe's strength as an initiator). Amplifying that strength's therefore fits well with our goals of increasing clear strengths and weaknesses for champions to create further distinctions between them.
Quick proposition.
The short range duelist/brawler-type marksmen/ranged bruisers all have 335 base ms (500-525, Sivir, Quinn, Lucian, Jayce, Nidalee).
The somewhat mobile AD carries have 330 base ms (Draven, Vayne, Graves) who are also quite in-your-face and have plenty of outplay potential.
The extremely supermobile AD carries have 325 base ms (Corki, Ezreal, Tristana) whose movespeed balances their extreme spell movement.
Ashe and Jinx seem to be exceptions, but I'd like to talk Varus.

He used to be 335.
He is the most like a spellcaster (combo caster) of all the ADs besides perhaps Lucian. His secondary class is in fact "Mage." AD Mage. Piercing Arrow is quite possibly one of my favorite spells to cast in the game. On release some suspected him to be a resurgence of midlane ADs.

Combo casters are all 340 movespeed, which the exception of Syndra and Viktor at 335.
Combo casters all seem to have at least 1 spell that doesn't interrupts movement (Malz W, Viktor E, Vel'koz W, Syndra everything).

All three of Varus's spells interrupt his movement, one of which substantially.
Varus has zero mobility.

Question: Why isn't Varus 335 (or 340) base movespeed? Can we look at this as an option? I feel like he would be the best candidate for the first 340 base movespeed ranged AD, considering his kitey AD caster identity.

EDIT:
I mean, you can look at him like a "control mage" - CC heavy like Anivia/Orianna and similar to Ashe/Jinx, but I don't. Ashe doesn't use her ultimate as much as a combo spell rotation like Varus uses R. Jinx with W either. His spells are more fluid, and designed to be used spellwoven to proc W. He's supposed to stick. That's why I've grown accustomed to building Trinity on him for outplay potential. I feel like he's better suited as a spellcaster with rotations like Lucian than to be a slow CC ranger like Ashe.

EDIT: Who the hell downvoted my post? The hell? Respond to posts with a brain. Jesus Christ. I'll take it as an upvote since you clearly agree with me. Zero rebuttal = concession.


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minas2g

Senior Member

07-19-2014

@Meddler

Are you guys thinking of giving Ashe a new passive? It doesn't have to be a better passive damage-wise, but something that feels better to the player.

Maybe something that would help her utility?