Morello. Let's be real. What is so hard about nerfing Lee Sin? Especially for Worlds.

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Ghostcrawler

Lead Game Designer

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07-14-2014
1 of 15 Riot Posts

I'll address this at a philosophical level, because someone in the trenches of the live team would be better to mention specific tactics.

Champions are coolest, in our opinion, when they have distinct strengths and weaknesses. (This is why we describe champs that are just balls of stats as a bad thing and try to update them.) Moreover, when balancing champs, we achieve the best results when we buff things a champ is good at and nerf things a champ is weak at. This opens up opportunities for cool moments when a champ leverages their strengths, but still leaves clear opportunities for counterplay.

The problem with Lee Sin is that while he has some really cool things he does well, he doesn't have obvious weaknesses that we can enhance in order to open up windows to try and shut him down. This means we have to invent a weakness, which is a dicey prospect, because it means having to redefine a champion's role. "Oh, you only thought Lee was great at mobility and that's why you played him, but we just decided that should be something he's bad at instead. So sorry." (Just an example obviously.) That doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to balance him, but it means it takes more exploration than just nerfing his Q or whatever.

I'll even expand on the philosophical discussion and say that improving champion diversity is something we need to deliver. By champion diversity I mean three things: more champions actually played, more distinction among champions, and sometimes actually getting to play the champion you like instead of him or her getting pick/banned all the time. These are long term goals and not something we're going to quickly accomplish in a patch or two, but they are long term goals, and I have no problem if you hold me accountable for making sure we drive in that direction.


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Izbiz

Senior Member

07-14-2014

If Lee is in ANOTHER Worlds, I'm done with e-sports.


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DollaMenunaire

Senior Member

07-14-2014

cliff notes of red post: Lee Sin will continue to be OP for a long, long time


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Bluntless

Member

07-14-2014

Why does Lee Sin seem to be the only champion Riot won't nerf when he crowds out everyone else? Can you actually Olaf a champion when we need you to?


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Kopikatsu

Senior Member

07-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
I'll address this at a philosophical level, because someone in the trenches of the live team would be better to mention specific tactics.

Champions are coolest, in our opinion, when they have distinct strengths and weaknesses. (This is why we describe champs that are just balls of stats as a bad thing and try to update them.) Moreover, when balancing champs, we achieve the best results when we buff things a champ is good at and nerf things a champ is weak at. This opens up opportunities for cool moments when a champ leverages their strengths, but still leaves clear opportunities for counterplay.

The problem with Lee Sin is that while he has some really cool things he does well, he doesn't have obvious weaknesses that we can enhance in order to open up windows to try and shut him down. This means we have to invent a weakness, which is a dicey prospect, because it means having to redefine a champion's role. "Oh, you only thought Lee was great at mobility and that's why you played him, but we just decided that should be something he's bad at instead. So sorry." (Just an example obviously.) That doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to balance him, but it means it takes more exploration than just nerfing his Q or whatever.

I'll even expand on the philosophical discussion and say that improving champion diversity is something we need to deliver. By champion diversity I mean three things: more champions actually played, more distinction among champions, and sometimes actually getting to play the champion you like instead of him or her getting pick/banned all the time. These are long term goals and not something we're going to quickly accomplish in a patch or two, but they are long term goals, and I have no problem if you hold me accountable for making sure we drive in that direction.
Suggestion: Remove the energy return on his passive and stick it on his ult (Giving him ~30 energy for each champion hit, including the initial target), then reduce the range of his ult's knockback but let the target knock other enemies back like a pinball. So if he ults one champion into another, both end up being knocked back. Suddenly he has somewhat long periods of downtime between skill rotations without greatly inhibiting his mobility (But someone who manages to catch up to him after his mobility skills have been burned will find him largely defenseless).

If needed, change his bonus AD ratios into total AD ratios to accommodate the change from sustained damage/mobility to burst.


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Aeolian Melodies

Senior Member

07-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
I'll address this at a philosophical level, because someone in the trenches of the live team would be better to mention specific tactics.

Champions are coolest, in our opinion, when they have distinct strengths and weaknesses. (This is why we describe champs that are just balls of stats as a bad thing and try to update them.) Moreover, when balancing champs, we achieve the best results when we buff things a champ is good at and nerf things a champ is weak at. This opens up opportunities for cool moments when a champ leverages their strengths, but still leaves clear opportunities for counterplay.

The problem with Lee Sin is that while he has some really cool things he does well, he doesn't have obvious weaknesses that we can enhance in order to open up windows to try and shut him down. This means we have to invent a weakness, which is a dicey prospect, because it means having to redefine a champion's role. "Oh, you only thought Lee was great at mobility and that's why you played him, but we just decided that should be something he's bad at instead. So sorry." (Just an example obviously.) That doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to balance him, but it means it takes more exploration than just nerfing his Q or whatever.

I'll even expand on the philosophical discussion and say that improving champion diversity is something we need to deliver. By champion diversity I mean three things: more champions actually played, more distinction among champions, and sometimes actually getting to play the champion you like instead of him or her getting pick/banned all the time. These are long term goals and not something we're going to quickly accomplish in a patch or two, but they are long term goals, and I have no problem if you hold me accountable for making sure we drive in that direction.
So many words to say absolutely nothing worth noting.

You should try politics.


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Splendid Pie

Senior Member

07-14-2014

Why don't you do with Lee what you did with Eve, Xin, and Olaf? Take his balls away until you're ready to give him a proper change. Feels like you guys play favorite with champions like Lee and Nidalee.


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IAintDarius

Senior Member

07-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
I'll address this at a philosophical level, because someone in the trenches of the live team would be better to mention specific tactics.

Champions are coolest, in our opinion, when they have distinct strengths and weaknesses. (This is why we describe champs that are just balls of stats as a bad thing and try to update them.) Moreover, when balancing champs, we achieve the best results when we buff things a champ is good at and nerf things a champ is weak at. This opens up opportunities for cool moments when a champ leverages their strengths, but still leaves clear opportunities for counterplay.

The problem with Lee Sin is that while he has some really cool things he does well, he doesn't have obvious weaknesses that we can enhance in order to open up windows to try and shut him down. This means we have to invent a weakness, which is a dicey prospect, because it means having to redefine a champion's role. "Oh, you only thought Lee was great at mobility and that's why you played him, but we just decided that should be something he's bad at instead. So sorry." (Just an example obviously.) That doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to balance him, but it means it takes more exploration than just nerfing his Q or whatever.

I'll even expand on the philosophical discussion and say that improving champion diversity is something we need to deliver. By champion diversity I mean three things: more champions actually played, more distinction among champions, and sometimes actually getting to play the champion you like instead of him or her getting pick/banned all the time. These are long term goals and not something we're going to quickly accomplish in a patch or two, but they are long term goals, and I have no problem if you hold me accountable for making sure we drive in that direction.
This...didn't solve a thing...


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MrSc0tty

Senior Member

07-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
I'll address this at a philosophical level, because someone in the trenches of the live team would be better to mention specific tactics.

Champions are coolest, in our opinion, when they have distinct strengths and weaknesses. (This is why we describe champs that are just balls of stats as a bad thing and try to update them.) Moreover, when balancing champs, we achieve the best results when we buff things a champ is good at and nerf things a champ is weak at. This opens up opportunities for cool moments when a champ leverages their strengths, but still leaves clear opportunities for counterplay.

The problem with Lee Sin is that while he has some really cool things he does well, he doesn't have obvious weaknesses that we can enhance in order to open up windows to try and shut him down. This means we have to invent a weakness, which is a dicey prospect, because it means having to redefine a champion's role. "Oh, you only thought Lee was great at mobility and that's why you played him, but we just decided that should be something he's bad at instead. So sorry." (Just an example obviously.) That doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to balance him, but it means it takes more exploration than just nerfing his Q or whatever.

I'll even expand on the philosophical discussion and say that improving champion diversity is something we need to deliver. By champion diversity I mean three things: more champions actually played, more distinction among champions, and sometimes actually getting to play the champion you like instead of him or her getting pick/banned all the time. These are long term goals and not something we're going to quickly accomplish in a patch or two, but they are long term goals, and I have no problem if you hold me accountable for making sure we drive in that direction.

Oh, I get it.

Like when you removed Janna's passive and buffed her..um..

Or when you got rid of Lulu's damage, shield, buff and kept her strength in...uh

Or when you Nerfed Sorakas healing but kept her defining strength of being good at...hmm.

So this only applies to bruisers ADCs and assassins, and supports, tanks and mages just get across the board nerfs to their damage, tankiness, utility and itemization.


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Dfenestrator

Senior Member

07-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler View Post
Champions are coolest, in our opinion, when they have distinct strengths and weaknesses....The problem with Lee Sin is that while he has some really cool things he does well, he doesn't have obvious weaknesses...
What bothers me is that, up until now, you guys have outright gutted champions while you 'look' into inventing these types of weaknesses.

It feels like Lee Sin has avoided this for a very long time (since his release) because of how popular he is and how flashy his plays are.