Undeath, Terror and Acid Hunters: Let's talk Urgot

First Riot Post
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exec3

Senior Member

07-05-2014

Hopefully the Muramana changes don't go through. Muramana is a great niche item. Those proposed changes should be for a new item, not a replacement to what is a perfectly fine item.


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Coldmanj

Senior Member

07-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
One change I'd like to test, but have only limited confidence in at present, is having his shield scale with mana instead of AP. Doing so would offer some additional build distinction for Urgot (tanky mana build versus raw AD/pen build) and supports using Tear which I feel's fun and synergizes well with the Q refund change if that sticks. Potential downsides are a risk of forcing Urgot down a single build path, damage and tankiness from one stat via Manamune/Muraman (snowball issues) or alternatively, if the Muramana changes go through, a lack of appropriate mana items to support such a passive.



Yeah, would definitely want to add some compensatory power somewhere if we go ahead with those changes and they cut significant power off Urgot. Not sure what form that would take yet though, few things such as a the possible mana scaling above, I'd want to look into to help make that decision.
one thing i have always been curious about with urgot is why is he unable to proc on hit effects with acid hunter. this would open so many different avenues for him. however there would need to be some major damage tweaks on the ability if this happened. The biggest abuse case would ultimately be triforce and iceborn gauntlet. However if the muramana changes went through this might be a perfect change to maintain his much needed late game damage.


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

07-06-2014

Bit of an odd thought.

Why does Urgot's Q have to be shot from his right hand? Visually and mentally it gets tied to the flying harpoons. It might be possible to do a "make just a single new particle for Q" and have it come out of his left hand's cannon to keep art resource cost low while communicating a significant gameplay change.


I personally think it might be interesting to try an Urgot where his Q is still a line nuke but, it fires minions that gain speed while traveling toward E'd targets. This would make landings Q from longer ranger substantially harder. Though it kills the snappy-ness of the current E+Q combo. (Unless the speed boost is crazy high. Like double or triple if heading toward a target with acid on it. Could be like Niddalee Hunted)


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john

Senior Member

07-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by xSola View Post
I feel there's enough counterplay already - Hit with E, and Urgot gets a lot of damage to go through. Miss it, and you're not going to do much.

If ANYTHING should stay, it's the missile lock on.
how did this get upvoted? the missile lock-on is the reason he's been nerfed to ****.

it's essentially a spell that deals 700 damage at max level over 5 seconds, and cost a ton of mana IF you hit with it.

sound OP? yeah, that's why the rest of his kit is garbage.


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Bastilean

Senior Member

07-06-2014

Urgot really needs a lot of help. He wasn't that good when Riot nerfed him. He is extremely hard to play and unsatisfyingly so (raw point and click overload on his E>Q). I can easily say I felt he was extremely weak before Riot nerfed him. As far as I remember Urgot's few games in competitive play were great and the fans loved them. Riot nerfed him into the ground and did not look back.

I think you could increase his base movement speed to 345 because he has such a short range and four legs. His lack of a movement steroid and short range AA make him feel extremely akward.


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Uberphish

Senior Member

07-06-2014

I hope this hasn't been mentioned before now (102 pages, chances are slim, but maybe it was a while ago), but has the option ever been considered to allow Urgot's Q to proc on-hit effects? Even if it were only the homing versions that could do it, I think it would grant him a lot of options in terms of building towards damage or utility - for example, he could afford to build Essence Reaver rather than Manamune for mana sustain while barraging, use Frozen Mallet to couple with the shield-borne slow, or proc Iceborn Gauntlet from a distance to prepare for an engage.

It's just a change I've considered being the difference between his ignored state now and being recognized as the credible threat he could become in the right situation.

Either way, I'm just happy the crab-man is getting some love, and these changes alone sound awesome! I look forward to things to come!


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Muszy

Junior Member

07-06-2014

TL;DR

  • I play the 5 Least Picked Champions in Ranked SoloQ NA.
  • I have experience playing Urgot Top, Mid, Jungle, Support, and Marksman at a Diamond 4/3 level with a 56% Win-Rate across 43 Games on this account.
  • The Q change is an direct nerf to Support and Jungle Urgot
  • The Q change is an overall nerf to Top Lane Urgot in ideal yet realistic situations.
  • The Q change is a potential buff to Mid Lane Urgot and Marksman Urgot when facing Lane Bullies, but Mana Costs are less of an issue on Mid Lane Urgot.
  • The missile speed change and R cooldown/mana buffs seem like safe changes which should help Urgot in all roles without giving him too much power.
  • The proposed W changes to scale with AD would be hard to balance as it would be a huge buff to Glass Cannon ~400 AD Mid and Marksman Urgot while being less useful on Top, Support, and Jungle Urgot which rarely build more than 200 bonus AD.
  • The proposed W changes to scale with MP would be a buff to Urgot in all lanes as he builds some form of mana (Manamune/Frozen Heart) as part of his Core Item Build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Hey all.

Tentative list of changes we're looking at for that first patch (note, not yet in testing, so may well change):

General
  • Basic attack missile speed increased to 1600 (from 1300)
    - Given Urgot's short attack range a more responsive auto attack's appropriate for the risk he's often putting himself in
  • Recommended item update
  • Some minor visual effects clean up
I think this is a pretty safe change that might make his auto attack feel better. There are other factors that go into how satisfying an auto attack feels, and I think they can be looked into. I may be wrong on this as I can't seem to find any specific information about auto attack animation wind-up times, but it feels like some champions have longer wind-up animations (Karthus comes to mind) than ones who really fluidly transition between moving and attacking (Zyra is a good example). I haven't really paid that much attention to it, but shortening the wind-up animation time would do more to make Urgot attack safely


Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Q
  • Acid Hunters now check for Noxian Corrosive Charge on both start and end of Acid Hunter cast
    - Currently only checks at start of cast, penalizing swift follow up shots after firing the E at long range and attempts to sneak in a final homing shot as Noxian Corrosive Charge is close to expiring)
  • Mana cost increased to 50 (from 40), half mana cost refunded on kill
    - Primary goal here is to punish Urgot less for last hitting with Acid Hunters when he needs to. Slight increase in cost to maintain a bit more harass cost, though still aiming to have this be a net buff to Urgot's mana usage.
I have been playing Urgot for a while in Diamond 3/Diamond 4 and have found that last hitting with Q is not very necessary. I have some experience with playing him in all 5 meta-roles at this level.

Top
You have a range advantage, even with the meager 425 auto attack range, against almost all Top Lane champions since most of them are melee. Farming with auto attacks does not put you in that great of a danger. With a little practice his relatively low base AD (32nd lowest at 48) Q is not required to last hit. I primarily reserve Q for harassing the enemy Top Laner and it's not uncommon for 80% or more Qs to be intended for a champion instead of a minion. To me this seems more like an overall nerf instead of a buff to Top Lane Urgot

Mid
While you are most likely not going to have an auto attack range advantage, most harass comes from spells anyway, making auto attack range differences less noticable. In this instance I could see this change being an overall buff if you play against more champions that bully you out of lane with a combination of spells and basic attacks, and you are forced to farm with Q. However, I feel that this is less of an issue in the shorter mid lane since it is a little easier to manipulate the minion wave to prevent the enemy from deep freezing at their tower. This issue also becomes less relevant when you (hopefully) get donated the 2nd or 3rd blue buff by your jungler. One suggestion, which I think has already been previously rejected, is buffing his auto attack range from 425 to 450, but this would further defeat the purpose of the proposed Q changes, and might make his basic attack harass too strong in the Top Lane.

Jungle
You almost never use Q to only last hit Jungle Monsters. You are usually alternating Qs and Auto Attacks to clear faster and ultimately take less damage from the camp, if mana allows it. Even with Blue Buff Urgot burns through mana quickly by trying to clear this way. Increasing the mana cost to the first 9 or so Qs it takes to clear big camps only to have the 10th cost half is an overall nerf to Jungle Urgot. Anything more than 2 Qs per Jungle Monster and you are at a net loss ("2Qs before" = 40 + 40 = 80mp vs "2Qs after" = 50 + 25 = 75mp). Now I doubt these changes are being made with Jungle Urgot in mind, since there aren't many players who try to Jungle Urgot with his already lowest pick rate, but it's just something interesting you might consider.

Support
In this role, Urgot's auto attack range disadvantage is somewhat less significant since you are not forced to walk up to cs. Most of your harass comes from your Q and E. This is a complete nerf to Support Urgot, who I feel is in a decent place right now, as far as Urgot goes. Some parts of his kit that I feel make him a strong Support pick are:
  • PASSIVE: Enemy damage output is reduced by 15% for 2.5s. This is great in small trades or even all in 2v2s as you can quickly apply a mini exhaust debuff to both targets. It might be even a little too strong since nobody else has a complete damage output debuff that is so accessible at any time.
  • Q: Helps Urgot have presence in lane, even with his short auto attack range. Also applies the passive debuff.
  • W: A shield to protect Urgot from damage while also providing a utility slow for catch or peel.
  • E: An AoE Armor Shred Debuff (20% @ lvl 5) for your Physical Damage which is almost equivalent to a Black Cleaver (25% @ 5 stacks). Combining both (if my math is correct) results in a 40% Armor Reduction to all targets you manage to hit with E. Combine him with Corki's Gattling Gun Flat Armor Reduction and you're basically dealing true damage.
  • R: In lane can be used as an engage tool to create a momentary 2v1, or it can be used defensively to peel for your Marksman or Squishy Mid. It also gives you a lot of defensive stats which rival Braum and Leona's for 5 seconds.

The Mana changes to Q would be an overall nerf to Support Urgot since in an ideal scenario, you will never kill anything with Q and should be discouraged from doing so. But again, the question is obviously: "how important is preserving Urgot's Support Role"? My guess is it is not very high priority.


R


Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
  • CD reduced to 120/110/100 (from 120)
    - Adding a bit of late game power, without increasing his potential lane bully case
  • Mana cost reduced to 100 (from 120)
    - Standardization with standard ult mana cost
I'm not sure if I've ever noticed that his ult has a high mana cost or a high cooldown since in the late game you usually have a few CDR items and Mana items, but it does put him in line with other champions by updating the really old standard for Mana Cost and Cooldown on Ultimates that still seems to exist on older champions.

My biggest issue with his ultimate is that it has an incredibly short cast range at Rank 1. I know that it was part of the reason the ability got nerfed so hard in the first place. It was incredibly frustrating to play against its old 700 cast range, but currently at Rank 1 his 500 Range Ultimate is ACTUALLY SHORTER than his abysmal 450 attack range.
Quote:
"Given a source unit's hitbox and a target unit's hitbox, range is calculated as follows: autoattack range from edge to edge; targeted skill range from center to center; skillshot range from edge to edge; and the range of self-centered area of effects are from the edge of the source (the larger champions don't benefit less from auras than smaller champions). The difference is approximately 100 (i.e. 550 autoattack range is roughly 650 casting range" - http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Range.
I'm assuming the difference is even larger against champions with larger hitboxes.

Unfortunately I can't give feedback about frustrations of playing against Urgot, as I rarely ever see any in my Ranked games. But one thing I have noticed is that if he manages to get quick Armor Penetration (Brutalizer + Last Whisper or Brutalizer -> Black Cleaver) he still goes back to being able to half health enemy champions in lane with just one E + QQQ combo. Especially in the bot lane, the enemy Support can't do anything to stop it but watch helplessly. I even pity the Morgana's that try to Black Shield their Marksmans to no effect as all of his damage is Physical (read: True) Damage.

As some people have suggested, making the Q Lock-On mechanic not guarantee a Hit would add a lot of needed counterplay to his E + Q Combo.

I suggest his Q has 2 modes:
If there are no marked targets, Q behaves as it does now (Non-piercing line skill-shot like Ezreal Q).
If there are marked targets, they have a "Kha'Zix-like Isolation Indicator" around them of a couple units. If your cursor is within the "Marked Radius", Q instead behaves like an arcing skill shot that avoids unit collision similar to Xerath R. This would allow for your targets dodge your Q, even while marked with E. The "Marked Radius" would have to be big enough to lead your target even if he's moving quickly, but it can't be so big that you can E nearby minions and Q enemy champions standing too close. If the Q damage would be significantly different between marked targets and unmarked targets, maybe this could be left as an added mechanic in where the goal is to E enemy caster minions and try to Q the unmarked enemy champion that's standing within the minions' "Marked Radius" with the Arcing Mode for a reduced damage. (This might already be the case since the enemy champion would not have the Armor Shred Debuff in this scenario)

I'm not sure if this change would be considered a band-aid or a complete ability overhaul, but I think this would be a healthy fix that solves many of his counterplay issues, and would reduce the need to completely overhaul the champion, and maybe even return some power elsewhere in his kit.

Thank you for your time Meddler. I hope this is the kind of feedback you were looking for.

Sincerely, 5 Lowest Pick Rates


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zZAJZz

Senior Member

07-06-2014

Meddler, could you increase Urgot's range to 550? Or at least Jayce's range with mercury cannon?
And could you increase his base mana stats too?


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Hyrum Graff

Senior Member

07-06-2014

My friend was wondering what you guys think about these suggestions:

- adding some damage to his ult (not much, just to make it feel better to use)
- increasing its range (urgot doesn't have to expose himself pre-use-and-resistance-buff)
or
- allowing urgot to cast w while ulting (but not other abiliites - like how Garen can cast his shield while he's spinning, but not his q) - so he'll have some protection, even if he's building damage.


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Prof Nekko

Senior Member

07-06-2014

hey Meddler... Obvious one here but you are going to be changing his classification to a Bruiser instead of a marksman right? That alone will do wonders for the poor guy