Why Lee Sin is Truly OP and Broken @riot

First Riot Post
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Cedriel

Country Manager Chile

06-28-2014
4 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by BooleanCube View Post
What I hope is that you can find an elegant solution to the problem, without nuking him into trashtier. Champions are precariously reliant on their base values, and doing something like nerfing his Q's missing health damage from 8% to 4-6% would just make him more unreliable, without affecting his best or worst case scenarios.

As an example of one of the most elegant balancing decisions made by Riot recently, was nerfing Riven's E's shield duration. Same values, smaller window; and a surprisingly noticeable difference in pressure without gutting Riven's ability to make plays.
If I wanted to buff Volibear with the same mindset, I would for instance increase the Chain range on his R, because it feels kinda unsatisfying to pop your ulty and try to finish off that 50-health Lissandra gliding away next to some almost-conveniently-placed-minions.

I think the hidden strength of Lee Sin (and relatedly, the weakness of Kennen) lies in his passive, how often he can make good use of it, how it recharges energy, and what really gates us of his abilities in any one situation. Manaless champions need to be designed inherently differently from mana-based champions, and while this problem is significantly more high-profile, deeply-rooted, and competitive-scene-changing than "What kind of QoL buff could Volibear receive to make him more fun without tipping his balance?" I believe that Riot can find an elegant solution.
Thank you for a well thought-out and well-written post. We'd like to find an elegant solution, too.


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Yenn

Senior Member

06-28-2014

All these posts.

Overall, there are only two problems with Lee Sin: how effectively he can invaded basically every champion in the game and how he has too much ability to 'make plays' in the late game with low risk.

Lee Sin's late game isn't stellar, but the plays he can make are game breaking, not very hard to pull off, and most players don't have enough awareness to avoid them. I would be okay with him if he couldn't do this.

For example, you're trying to defend your inhibitor turret.
Lee Sin is throwing a Sonic Wave every 7 seconds.
He eventually lands one on someone; it could be anyone, not even a high priority target.
He follows up with Resonating Strike, flashes or ward jumps behind a high priority target, and kicks them out of your base.
They're guaranteed dead; your team can't get to them, because they were kicked over the wall.
Lee Sin then flashes or Safeguards out of your base, and his team takes your inhibitor turret 4v5.
This combo is extremely easy to pull off, skill-wise, and very hard to avoid while still defending the turret.


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PB4UAME

Senior Member

06-28-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yenn View Post
All these posts.

Overall, there are only two problems with Lee Sin: how effectively he can invaded basically every champion in the game and how he has too much ability to 'make plays' in the late game with low risk.

Lee Sin's late game isn't stellar, but the plays he can make are game breaking, not very hard to pull off, and most players don't have enough awareness to avoid them. I would be okay with him if he couldn't do this.

For example, you're trying to defend your inhibitor turret.
Lee Sin is throwing a Sonic Wave every 7 seconds.
He eventually lands one on someone; it could be anyone, not even a high priority target.
He follows up with Resonating Strike, flashes or ward jumps behind a high priority target, and kicks them out of your base.
They're guaranteed dead; your team can't get to them, because they were kicked over the wall.
Lee Sin then flashes or Safeguards out of your base, and his team takes your inhibitor turret 4v5.
This combo is extremely easy to pull off, skill-wise, and very hard to avoid while still defending the turret.
What I've always thought about implementing to Lee Sin's R to make this type of play less frustrating to play against, and require more skill on the part of the Lee Sin player, is to greatly shorten the distance a champion is knocked back, but make them act like pool balls, where if they strike another champion, they stop, and knock the other champion back the same distance as they were, and have it chain until a champion goes the max distance without hitting another champion.

This way, he couldn't q in, ult the ADC to their almost unpreventable death, and w away scot-free. He'd have to either knock them back only a few hundred range, or have them already be way out of position; but Lee Sin could still disrupt a teamfight with a well placed ultimate, and really separate a team.


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Drukyul

Senior Member

06-28-2014

You know, other champs that were consistently a problem ended up nerfed into the gutter while we waited for them to be fixed. Why is this not happening to Lee Sin?


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ExaltedVanguard

Senior Member

06-28-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Account For GD View Post
^ so true.

Tank jungles aren't viable at all solely because of Lee Sin.
Tank jungles aren't great because of the current power creep, which is a direct result of the mobility creep.

With champions so insanely mobile, sustained DPS (which favors tanks) is unreliable. If you can't kill them quickly, they can just jump away and to safety. So now we're playing in the league of Assassins and Burst. We all need to annihilate each other before the other guy can just run away.

Until something happens to turn this around, tanky damage champions (rammus, mundo) won't be favorable.


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Learn 2 Swim

Senior Member

06-28-2014

Ok so why is Riot looking for Lee Sin love taps when your gutting other champs like Olaf akd Khazix and leaving them completely alone to rot?

Why does Lee Sin always get the "delicate" approach to retuning a massively OP champion?


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kerestiar

Senior Member

06-28-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExaltedVanguard View Post
Tank jungles aren't great because of the current power creep, which is a direct result of the mobility creep.

With champions so insanely mobile, sustained DPS (which favors tanks) is unreliable. If you can't kill them quickly, they can just jump away and to safety. So now we're playing in the league of Assassins and Burst. We all need to annihilate each other before the other guy can just run away.

Until something happens to turn this around, tanky damage champions (rammus, mundo) won't be favorable.
They don't have options either. A fed tank jungler won't do much more damage than a non-fed one, but a fed Lee Sin/Vi with early SotEL and Brutalizer can easily kill laners by themselves and then just go tanky later.


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Pal2002

Senior Member

07-01-2014

What a great thread actually.

Found this after learning that literally half of challenger have lee sin as their top 3 champions.

Great read, and a lot of truth.


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Minsk and Boo

Member

08-28-2014

Brilliant analysis OP. Indulge me in a short story to illustrate why I agree with you.

I've been playing since S2 on and off but I dislike stress so I play a lot of bot games for relaxation and generally avoid ranked. My mechanics are also Cardboard V level and first time I bought and tried Lee in S2 I just wasn't good enough to play him and make the right jungling choices so I decided to come back to him later.

To mitigate my lack of l33t skillz, I chose easier (I thought) junglers. J4, who was easier before they nerfed his knockup radius, Jax, Nocturne, Udyr, then I went support Thresh (zomg, a skillshot!) for a while and came back to Yi and lastly Sejuani, who I love.

To play Sejuani even remotely decently you have to hit a skillshot consistently. It's a big chunk of her damage, a knockup and applies frost. It's on a loooong CD. If you miss it, you duffed the gank. Period.

Last night I went back to Lee for the first time in 2 years, now with lessons learned about how, where and when to gank. It was a bot game and I know the power curve and skill of the AI champ pool very, very well. I went to top thinking, what the heck, lvl 3 top 2v2 never works but let's just try. I positioned well (like everyone else has to, but not Lee), hit my skillshot (gasp!) and then, when it was off very low CD, I did it again (gasp!).

I just spammed stuff in between, I mean, who cares, it's Lee: everything is useful all the time, right? Right. DOUBLE KILL. I literally sat back in shock. W. T. F. I just blew up Renekton and Yi with a Khazix ally who only joined towards the end. The second kill covered more distance than a flash to secure it. With one skill.

For my amazing runes and masteries, I had 14 utility to get the lifesteal/spellvamp, because some champs need it (not Lee), 23% AS, scaling health, all the wrong stuff for a lvl 3 Lee gank.

Suddenly I realised - THIS is what I can use to carry myself to whatever skill level I can achieve. Not Sej, not J4, not Maokai, not Jax, not Yi, not Noc, not Mundo. No, what I need is the one man monster annihilator machine of Doom. If I play well, the game is effectively over by 15:00. This is *after* they nerfed his AS debuff? Seriously? Wow.


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Verideathul

Senior Member

08-28-2014

Holy necromancy, Batman.