Why Lee Sin is Truly OP and Broken @riot

First Riot Post
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Hellioning

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Tryhard View Post
Why did Riot reverted the changes suggested for Lee Sin ?
Cause the Lee players complained a lot, really. I kinda felt they were a bit heavy handed myself, but I honestly think Lee needs a rework. Homogenization or not, Lee's always going to be at least decent with that kit unless his numbers are absolutely terrible.


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Nyhver

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Tryhard View Post
Why did Riot reverted the changes suggested for Lee Sin ?
I believe most of it was because of the community rallying behind Diamondprox when he made a post/comment that was on the front page of Reddit

The Riot changed took damage away primarily from Lee Sin's dragon rage and buffed his attack speed steroid passive so he was more of an auto attack champion than the fluid one he is currently

I definitely want to keep Lee Sin's playstyle the way it is, and I'd rather have Lee Sin's power adjusted through game changes or champion changes for other champions but that'd take a lot of work


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Cedriel

Country Manager Chile

4 Weeks Ago
3 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Tryhard View Post
Why did Riot reverted the changes suggested for Lee Sin ?
Pwyff, who has much more insight into all of this than I do, talked about the Lee Sin changes here: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...68744#45968744

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyhver View Post
I definitely want to keep Lee Sin's playstyle the way it is, and I'd rather have Lee Sin's power adjusted through game changes or champion changes for other champions but that'd take a lot of work
I don't have visibility into what our balance team is planning for Lee Sin, but they're doing good work in boosting the viability of support / tanky junglers via itemization: http://community.na.leagueoflegends....patch-forecast


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Croanin

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyhver View Post
I believe most of it was because of the community rallying behind Diamondprox when he made a post/comment that was on the front page of Reddit

The Riot changed took damage away primarily from Lee Sin's dragon rage and buffed his attack speed steroid passive so he was more of an auto attack champion than the fluid one he is currently

I definitely want to keep Lee Sin's playstyle the way it is, and I'd rather have Lee Sin's power adjusted through game changes or champion changes for other champions but that'd take a lot of work
OP's post was a tad exaggerated imo but extremely true. And was the Rioter said Lee Sin just has too much going for him in the early game. Look at Stonewalls Tier List and look at his specs for each jungler in categories that include, ganking, clearing, sustain, invasion etc. Lee Sin doesn't score under a B in anything and has a few S ranks no one else has such stats. Something for the jungling phase of the game has to give, he's simply good at everything.

Also much like the Rioter said Lee Sin pretty much ousted a large amount of junglers by his mere presence. A lot of junglers can invade you but with Lee's mobility he can easily by pass wards, get the jump on you and just dash over a wall if things get ugly.


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Frayace

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

bump


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DSerigale

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

Lee Sin is like LoL's Mary Sue


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InfiniX

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

you know it's bad when a COUNTRY MANAGER has to speak for riot's pathetic balance.


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Gayer

Member

4 Weeks Ago

People still mad about balanced champion. I love these forums.


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wehateteemo

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedriel View Post
There is one thing that you touch on in your post that I liked, bait or not: win rates are not a good indicator of how over/underpowered a champion is. This is because most champions—regardless of strength—are at a disadvantage against certain kinds of kits and playstyles, and so strong champions end up popularizing their own counters.

The way this plays out is fairly complex. A champion's viability in the metagame depends on how wide of a champion pool can exploit its weaknesses, the general utility and viability of those champions, how it's affected by itemization changes, and its best-case and worst-case performance against other viable champions. Picture a fighting game-style matchup chart (e.g., http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...chup101a-1.png) but with over 100 characters, complicated by having distinct roles and team dynamics and variable item builds.

The metagame stabilizes as people try all these different combinations in play and figure out strategies that work. In the current metagame what has happened is that Lee Sin's effectiveness as a duelist and extreme mobility make him very effective at counter-jungling and counter-ganking: he can go into your jungle, pick a 1v1 fight in which he has an advantage, and escape by ward-hopping over walls if things get ugly. He also brings both good ganking capability and fair team fight utility. In other words, he's strong in all areas but exceptionally strong in demolishing the enemy jungler.

The S4 jungle roster has been defined by Lee Sin and the few champions that can take him on evenly in duels while also offering good ganking/team-fight value: Elise, Kha'zix (pre-changes) and Eve (who is viable by playing a different game than the previous three). What win-rates in high-level play reflect is that Lee Sin is well-balanced against these three champions. What they don't reflect is that he's crowding out a large number of characters who would simply get pushed out of their own jungle if they got picked.

I think you (OP) realize that both sides in the Lee Sin debate have a point: yes, he does have a high skill-cap; yes, he is rarely banned in high-level play; yes, he has an average win-rate and does not significantly outperform other champions in LCS. Yes, he is extremely strong in the early-game; yes, his kit allows him to demolish many other junglers; yes, he doesn't require that much skill to do all of this; yes, he doesn't have significant weaknesses. All of these things are true.

In my eyes, Lee Sin is problematic in that he's a determining factor for the reduced pool of champions we see in the jungle. I hope that our live balance team can come up with a way to keep his core identity (and the fun factor of comboing his abilities) intact while diminishing his ability to crush a large share of jungling champions.
I agree that the other junglers need help ( and they are getting it already. ).

But the real problem I see with Lee is that on top of his all rounded strength, he counters stealth champions very hard in and out of lane.

Xin , Udyr and Elise are all examples of extremely strong duelists that kick the other junglers out while being extremely punishing throughout the game. Hence if Lee is adjusted these guys will be used to kill the weaker junglers np.

They should be either toned down as well, or Lee gets to choose between being all rounded VS being a counter stealth.


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Ginga

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Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedriel View Post
I wouldn't say that. Again, a lot of factors influence what is viable in the metagame and what isn't. Lee Sin is a factor, yes, but if he were to get nerfed I doubt that you would instantly start seeing tank junglers popping up in LCS. Lee Sin existed in S3 too, you know.


TL;DR: It's complicated.
My personal theory.

You remember that patch that you made AD Assassins viable? That one where you made % penetration apply before flat penetration?

I feel that, while it was great for assassins, it was around that time that tanks started going downhill. I no longer feel anywhere near as sturdy as I used to as a tank.


That, and you guys kept nerfing tank itemization *cough*Warmogs*cough*