Why Lee Sin is Truly OP and Broken @riot

First Riot Post
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Lesbian Vi

Member

06-26-2014

He is not blind, That's the start.


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Zero Suit Senpai

Senior Member

06-26-2014

but muh skillshot


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Nyhver

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by dons90 View Post
Bump. Lee is blind but is able to single-handedly carry so many games

Edit: Wow satire pls
It wasn't all entirely sarcasm but outplayed outbaited outsmarted

nerf lee sin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ6p...ature=youtu.be
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcus Diabolus View Post
You called yourself mechanically challenged, but you pulled off some pretty cool stuff right there. Well done.

ty friend
Quote:
Originally Posted by EXO xSarang View Post
What if i suck at lee sin? Dx
im good with other people like ori/yasuo/ect though, I just dont like lee sin
it's probably a 'use to' thing

I really dislike orianna because I think she's an overrated piece of **** like Kog'maw when it comes to "but my skill floor positioning!" but I don't play her, so I'd probably miss all of her ultimates, never played her, not once

If you play with and against a champion enough you can understand generally what they should/can do but refining what they should or shouldn't do especially if it's a mechanical thing usually requires a bit of time on the champion


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Cedriel

Country Manager Chile

4 Weeks Ago
1 of 4 Riot Posts

There is one thing that you touch on in your post that I liked, bait or not: win rates are not a good indicator of how over/underpowered a champion is. This is because most champions—regardless of strength—are at a disadvantage against certain kinds of kits and playstyles, and so strong champions end up popularizing their own counters.

The way this plays out is fairly complex. A champion's viability in the metagame depends on how wide of a champion pool can exploit its weaknesses, the general utility and viability of those champions, how it's affected by itemization changes, and its best-case and worst-case performance against other viable champions. Picture a fighting game-style matchup chart (e.g., http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...chup101a-1.png) but with over 100 characters, complicated by having distinct roles and team dynamics and variable item builds.

The metagame stabilizes as people try all these different combinations in play and figure out strategies that work. In the current metagame what has happened is that Lee Sin's effectiveness as a duelist and extreme mobility make him very effective at counter-jungling and counter-ganking: he can go into your jungle, pick a 1v1 fight in which he has an advantage, and escape by ward-hopping over walls if things get ugly. He also brings both good ganking capability and fair team fight utility. In other words, he's strong in all areas but exceptionally strong in demolishing the enemy jungler.

The S4 jungle roster has been defined by Lee Sin and the few champions that can take him on evenly in duels while also offering good ganking/team-fight value: Elise, Kha'zix (pre-changes) and Eve (who is viable by playing a different game than the previous three). What win-rates in high-level play reflect is that Lee Sin is well-balanced against these three champions. What they don't reflect is that he's crowding out a large number of characters who would simply get pushed out of their own jungle if they got picked.

I think you (OP) realize that both sides in the Lee Sin debate have a point: yes, he does have a high skill-cap; yes, he is rarely banned in high-level play; yes, he has an average win-rate and does not significantly outperform other champions in LCS. Yes, he is extremely strong in the early-game; yes, his kit allows him to demolish many other junglers; yes, he doesn't require that much skill to do all of this; yes, he doesn't have significant weaknesses. All of these things are true.

In my eyes, Lee Sin is problematic in that he's a determining factor for the reduced pool of champions we see in the jungle. I hope that our live balance team can come up with a way to keep his core identity (and the fun factor of comboing his abilities) intact while diminishing his ability to crush a large share of jungling champions.


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Account For GD

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

^ so true.

Tank jungles aren't viable at all solely because of Lee Sin.


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Nid is Cancer

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Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedriel View Post
There is one thing that you touch on in your post that I liked, bait or not: win rates are not a good indicator of how over/underpowered a champion is. This is because most champions—regardless of strength—are at a disadvantage against certain kinds of kits and playstyles, and so strong champions end up popularizing their own counters.

The way this plays out is fairly complex. A champion's viability in the metagame depends on how wide of a champion pool can exploit its weaknesses, the general utility and viability of those champions, how it's affected by itemization changes, and its best-case and worst-case performance against other viable champions. Picture a fighting game-style matchup chart (e.g., http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...chup101a-1.png) but with over 100 characters, complicated by having distinct roles and team dynamics and variable item builds.

The metagame stabilizes as people try all these different combinations in play and figure out strategies that work. In the current metagame what has happened is that Lee Sin's effectiveness as a duelist and extreme mobility make him very effective at counter-jungling and counter-ganking: he can go into your jungle, pick a 1v1 fight in which he has an advantage, and escape by ward-hopping over walls if things get ugly. He also brings both good ganking capability and fair team fight utility. In other words, he's strong in all areas but exceptionally strong in demolishing the enemy jungler.

The S4 jungle roster has been defined by Lee Sin and the few champions that can take him on evenly in duels while also offering good ganking/team-fight value: Elise, Kha'zix (pre-changes) and Eve (who is viable by playing a different game than the previous three). What win-rates in high-level play reflect is that Lee Sin is well-balanced against these three champions. What they don't reflect is that he's crowding out a large number of characters who would simply get pushed out of their own jungle if they got picked.

I think you (OP) realize that both sides in the Lee Sin debate have a point: yes, he does have a high skill-cap; yes, he is rarely banned in high-level play; yes, he has an average win-rate and does not significantly outperform other champions in LCS. Yes, he is extremely strong in the early-game; yes, his kit allows him to demolish many other junglers; yes, he doesn't require that much skill to do all of this; yes, he doesn't have significant weaknesses. All of these things are true.

In my eyes, Lee Sin is problematic in that he's a determining factor for the reduced pool of champions we see in the jungle. I hope that our live balance team can come up with a way to keep his core identity (and the fun factor of comboing his abilities) intact while diminishing his ability to crush a large share of jungling champions.
lol u actually fkin read that


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MuZiK30

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedriel View Post
There is one thing that you touch on in your post that I liked, bait or not: win rates are not a good indicator of how over/underpowered a champion is. This is because most champions—regardless of strength—are at a disadvantage against certain kinds of kits and playstyles, and so strong champions end up popularizing their own counters.

The way this plays out is fairly complex. A champion's viability in the metagame depends on how wide of a champion pool can exploit its weaknesses, the general utility and viability of those champions, how it's affected by itemization changes, and its best-case and worst-case performance against other viable champions. Picture a fighting game-style matchup chart (e.g., http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...chup101a-1.png) but with over 100 characters, complicated by having distinct roles and team dynamics and variable item builds.

The metagame stabilizes as people try all these different combinations in play and figure out strategies that work. In the current metagame what has happened is that Lee Sin's effectiveness as a duelist and extreme mobility make him very effective at counter-jungling and counter-ganking: he can go into your jungle, pick a 1v1 fight in which he has an advantage, and escape by ward-hopping over walls if things get ugly. He also brings both good ganking capability and fair team fight utility. In other words, he's strong in all areas but exceptionally strong in demolishing the enemy jungler.

The S4 jungle roster has been defined by Lee Sin and the few champions that can take him on evenly in duels while also offering good ganking/team-fight value: Elise, Kha'zix (pre-changes) and Eve (who is viable by playing a different game than the previous three). What win-rates in high-level play reflect is that Lee Sin is well-balanced against these three champions. What they don't reflect is that he's crowding out a large number of characters who would simply get pushed out of their own jungle if they got picked.

I think you (OP) realize that both sides in the Lee Sin debate have a point: yes, he does have a high skill-cap; yes, he is rarely banned in high-level play; yes, he has an average win-rate and does not significantly outperform other champions in LCS. Yes, he is extremely strong in the early-game; yes, his kit allows him to demolish many other junglers; yes, he doesn't require that much skill to do all of this; yes, he doesn't have significant weaknesses. All of these things are true.

In my eyes, Lee Sin is problematic in that he's a determining factor for the reduced pool of champions we see in the jungle. I hope that our live balance team can come up with a way to keep his core identity (and the fun factor of comboing his abilities) intact while diminishing his ability to crush a large share of jungling champions.
You hit the nail on the head. Props to you!


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Vempyre

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedriel View Post
There is one thing that you touch on in your post that I liked, bait or not: win rates are not a good indicator of how over/underpowered a champion is. This is because most champions—regardless of strength—are at a disadvantage against certain kinds of kits and playstyles, and so strong champions end up popularizing their own counters.

The way this plays out is fairly complex. A champion's viability in the metagame depends on how wide of a champion pool can exploit its weaknesses, the general utility and viability of those champions, how it's affected by itemization changes, and its best-case and worst-case performance against other viable champions. Picture a fighting game-style matchup chart (e.g., http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...chup101a-1.png) but with over 100 characters, complicated by having distinct roles and team dynamics and variable item builds.

The metagame stabilizes as people try all these different combinations in play and figure out strategies that work. In the current metagame what has happened is that Lee Sin's effectiveness as a duelist and extreme mobility make him very effective at counter-jungling and counter-ganking: he can go into your jungle, pick a 1v1 fight in which he has an advantage, and escape by ward-hopping over walls if things get ugly. He also brings both good ganking capability and fair team fight utility. In other words, he's strong in all areas but exceptionally strong in demolishing the enemy jungler.

The S4 jungle roster has been defined by Lee Sin and the few champions that can take him on evenly in duels while also offering good ganking/team-fight value: Elise, Kha'zix (pre-changes) and Eve (who is viable by playing a different game than the previous three). What win-rates in high-level play reflect is that Lee Sin is well-balanced against these three champions. What they don't reflect is that he's crowding out a large number of characters who would simply get pushed out of their own jungle if they got picked.

I think you (OP) realize that both sides in the Lee Sin debate have a point: yes, he does have a high skill-cap; yes, he is rarely banned in high-level play; yes, he has an average win-rate and does not significantly outperform other champions in LCS. Yes, he is extremely strong in the early-game; yes, his kit allows him to demolish many other junglers; yes, he doesn't require that much skill to do all of this; yes, he doesn't have significant weaknesses. All of these things are true.

In my eyes, Lee Sin is problematic in that he's a determining factor for the reduced pool of champions we see in the jungle. I hope that our live balance team can come up with a way to keep his core identity (and the fun factor of comboing his abilities) intact while diminishing his ability to crush a large share of jungling champions.

They need to ignore " important " people who say he is fine as is and still nerf him. Elise Lee Sin and to a lesser extent Udyr make the majority of jungler's life hell.

Quill Coat / Spirit Of The Ancient Golem buffs are not gonna help Tanky Junglers. Champions like the one above and Vi will still slaughter them and put them extremely behind by jut tapping them while they are trying to do their first clear.


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Kilrow

Junior Member

4 Weeks Ago

You all will kill lee sin with your constant QQing then QQ after he gets nerfed to the ground


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6doranrings

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

#getrekt leesin nerfers