Can you get a chat ban without typing?

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Keizgon

Senior Member

06-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulanopo View Post
As someone with a very mild form of ODD, I feel your pain. I also find it frustrating that you're suddenly the poster child for "not positive enough". They should have explained your situation to you before it got this far.
Clarity could be used, but I don't have sympathy for someone who was explained over and over his behavior isn't an improvement if he remains neutral-negative in this thread. Future candidates can/should be applied to, but not someone who fails to understand what simple steps he could make to avoid it in the first place. Chances are, if he still doesn't get it, then clarity warnings wouldn't have helped him in the first place.


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Fisherman Fizz

Senior Member

06-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyMLC View Post
Here is the difference. Is the punishment trying to guide you towards behaving responsibly? Or is the punishment meant to make you suffer?

Chat restrictions can fall into either category depending on your perspective. And that perspective can completely change the effects of the system on an individual.
What? By definition a punishment is the 1st of those things. If something is designed purely to make someone suffer and has no effect on their behavior then it isn't actually a punishment by the formal definition of that word.

Chat restrictions are clearly a form punishment and are effective ones as well. They alter the environment in a way that's designed to reduce the likelihood that you act toxic in-game. It does that by forcing you to think about every message you send to decide if it's really worth sending. If you use your messages to tell your top lane Nasus that he sucks after he dies, you lose the ability to say something important later. So you end up not using your messages to tell him he sucks. That's how it works and it is clearly effective at doing that because 70% of people that get restricted do not get restricted again.

Now if you are in-game and your top lane Nasus dies, before you would have told him he sucks and should uninstall or whatever, but because of the chat restriction you don't. You are making a conscious decision to not act toxic. You are doing this every time you choose not to say something like that, even if the end result is you saying nothing in chat at all. If that is the case then you are clearly improving your behavior and the next step should be to remove the chat restriction when the games are finished so that you can generalize that behavior to games where you are free to say whatever you want.

Is this more clear to you?



Also something else I think would be a good idea: Rather than immediately lifting restriction, what about increasing the amount of messages someone is able to send slowly as a better way of gradually introducing generalization into the reform process, similar to fading.


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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06-26-2014
14 of 14 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulanopo View Post
[3] I don't understand why failure to communicate with the players isn't a much bigger deal. I know it's a small pond filled with self-selected fish, but the general level of anxiety and frustration in the TBI appeared to go down in response to the creation of the Mini KB: Chat Restrictions. Even generalized, formulaic answers seemed to help a lot of people - if for no other reason than they're answers. It baffles me that you guys don't seem to see any benefit to what amounts to a couple hours' work.

[4] I know I said this before, but it bears repeating. You could come to the TBI/PB any time and ask for feedback. Hell, you could just drop a question, tell us you're not going to engage in ongoing debate and see what comes up. There are some really bright, dedicated people in those forums and I think you would definitely benefit from their input. If it doesn't work out, I'll gladly eat that crow.
It is a big deal. I mentioned several times that we will strive to be more transparent, but we're still working overtime on some servers to implement chat restrictions at all. Historically, we've done a poor job at making sure every server has the full player behavior feature set; for example, to this day, some servers have never experienced a Tribunal at all and in some servers they don't have access to LeaverBuster. We need to get these features rolling on these other servers so they can at least match a baseline of player behavior before we keep forging ahead on NA. One of our core goals of the new Tribunal was to make sure that the tech was globally viable, so that we could launch Tribunal globally for the first time in League of Legends.

But, because standardizing player behavior features across the globe is a massive undertaking, it's greatly slowed down our communication with players in specific regions (like NA). We've been trying to figure out how we can maintain the quality of dialogue, while still ensuring that every player around the world has access to that information. But, it's a challenge when everything we'd want to discuss needs to be translated and localized in dozens of languages, then we need people like myself who are familiar with the systems actually interacting in every language at every timezone around the world. We're learning every day on how to do this better, and we aren't doing a great job today.

We also know that there's tons of bright players in TBI/PB forums, and we've rewarded them several times for their direct assistance on issues and in giving us a stronger player-perspective on certain things. We've invited players several times (if they live locally) to meet with us and talk about the features currently in progress. But right now, we know exactly what the problems are, exactly what we need to change in the systems, and exactly what dialogues we need to re-boot--we're just trying to figure out how to do it better everywhere, instead of just NA. For example, TBI/PB forums on some servers have gotten 0 responses from anyone in Player Behavior in the entire server's existence--we need to fix that.

Give us time, and we'll figure it out. In the past, we'd just post the KB article in NA and sometimes it'd take months before it reached other servers--we can't be that irresponsible anymore.


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Graidon

Senior Member

06-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keizgon View Post
Let me be clear on this because I am sick of restating it over and over due to lack of reading comprehension.

You were chat banned. You are now aware that you are in a negative position. Your goal from here is to outweigh your previous toxic behavior / negative influence with a positive outcome.

The system is based on karma. Just because you were a dick in the past, it doesn't mean you're going to see positive outcomes if you stop being a dick and remain neutral as your quota.

To reiterate what this means in a step by step scenario:

1) You were a dick and never attempted to be nice. You may have not talked in most games, but you were overall a dick.
2) You are now chat punished and aware you are a dick. You remain silent because you were causing problems for the moments you were outspokenly a dick.
3) Your chat suspension is alleviated from you. Your goal now is to prove you are a nice person and should make up for it. If you are neutral/silent, you aren't proving yourself at all. You may still be a dick, but are remaining silent.
4) You decide to not speak and not prove yourself to the reform analysis/review. You are sent back to punishment because you didn't improve per se. But since you didn't lash out, you're getting 5 less chat bans. Keep this up and eventually you'll net near neutral instead of neutral-negative.
You deserve a chat ban.


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Graidon

Senior Member

06-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleshakai View Post
Lyte isn't at work. He can't give you specifics - he doesn't have your data at home. He came in here to address it as best as he could without having those specifics. Yes, he should have provided better information far earlier - absolutely... but to expect a guy to be able to give you specifics when he does not have access to them is absurd.

And they did help you in the ticket, it just wasn't the answer you wanted. I'm sorry man, but it's true. The ticket answered the question, it just wasn't what you wanted to hear.

Which is why I said before that Ulanopa was right - they should have explained the way the system worked in better detail initially.
They did not help me in the ticket. They answered my ticket, but they did not help.

Hi, you were given a chat ban for being toxic.

Hi, but I didn't type.

...

Hello?

^ This.


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Devann

Master Recruiter

06-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keizgon View Post
Let me be clear on this because I am sick of restating it over and over due to lack of reading comprehension.

You were chat banned. You are now aware that you are in a negative position. Your goal from here is to outweigh your previous toxic behavior / negative influence with a positive outcome.

The system is based on karma. Just because you were a dick in the past, it doesn't mean you're going to see positive outcomes if you stop being a dick and remain neutral as your quota.

To reiterate what this means in a step by step scenario:

1) You were a dick and never attempted to be nice. You may have not talked in most games, but you were overall a dick.
2) You are now chat punished and aware you are a dick. You remain silent because you were causing problems for the moments you were outspokenly a dick.
3) Your chat suspension is alleviated from you. Your goal now is to prove you are a nice person and should make up for it. If you are neutral/silent, you aren't proving yourself at all. You may still be a dick, but are remaining silent.
4) You decide to not speak and not prove yourself to the reform analysis/review. You are sent back to punishment because you didn't improve per se. But since you didn't lash out, you're getting 5 less chat bans. Keep this up and eventually you'll net near neutral instead of neutral-negative.
No. I do not have to be a nice person. I shouldn't have to be. I'm just required to not be a dick. This is the problem. I refrain from talking and am entitled to do so, I shouldn't be punished for not being outspokenly positive.


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Keizgon

Senior Member

06-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graidon View Post
You deserve a chat ban.
Too bad I have too much positive influence (and will continue to do so) in my games, outweighing my negative slip ups, for this to ever happen.

If you want my secret, I'll give it to you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keizgon View Post
I rage at times too, but I'm not toxic enough to warrant a chat ban (never had one). I also come to my senses after warnings (rarely ever get them) that I just need to either A) Step away from the game for a while; B) Chill the **** out and quit being a baby.

You most certainly deserved it for being consistently toxic. Your fault, quit blaming the system.


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Keizgon

Senior Member

06-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devann View Post
No. I do not have to be a nice person. I shouldn't have to be. I'm just required to not be a dick. This is the problem. I refrain from talking and am entitled to do so, I shouldn't be punished for not being outspokenly positive.
I'd say you do. You ruined a lot of people's games. You should make up for this by improving yourself and everyone's experience.

Chatting is a privilege. Not an entitlement. If you can't behave positively, or neutral-neutral (silent) opposed to neutral-negative (silent-jerk), then you might as well be punished.


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Devann

Master Recruiter

06-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
It is a big deal. I mentioned several times that we will strive to be more transparent, but we're still working overtime on some servers to implement chat restrictions at all. Historically, we've done a poor job at making sure every server has the full player behavior feature set; for example, to this day, some servers have never experienced a Tribunal at all and in some servers they don't have access to LeaverBuster. We need to get these features rolling on these other servers so they can at least match a baseline of player behavior before we keep forging ahead on NA. One of our core goals of the new Tribunal was to make sure that the tech was globally viable, so that we could launch Tribunal globally for the first time in League of Legends.

But, because standardizing player behavior features across the globe is a massive undertaking, it's greatly slowed down our communication with players in specific regions (like NA). We've been trying to figure out how we can maintain the quality of dialogue, while still ensuring that every player around the world has access to that information. But, it's a challenge when everything we'd want to discuss needs to be translated and localized in dozens of languages, then we need people like myself who are familiar with the systems actually interacting in every language at every timezone around the world. We're learning every day on how to do this better, and we aren't doing a great job today.

We also know that there's tons of bright players in TBI/PB forums, and we've rewarded them several times for their direct assistance on issues and in giving us a stronger player-perspective on certain things. We've invited players several times (if they live locally) to meet with us and talk about the features currently in progress. But right now, we know exactly what the problems are, exactly what we need to change in the systems, and exactly what dialogues we need to re-boot--we're just trying to figure out how to do it better everywhere, instead of just NA. For example, TBI/PB forums on some servers have gotten 0 responses from anyone in Player Behavior in the entire server's existence--we need to fix that.

Give us time, and we'll figure it out. In the past, we'd just post the KB article in NA and sometimes it'd take months before it reached other servers--we can't be that irresponsible anymore.
I'm not sure if you'll get this but I don't exactly know where to make a direct suggestion.

My suggestion is pretty straight forward... Remove the standard ping and make all pings recordable in chat. Lots of times players can troll by spamming pings but have no repercussions because there is no proof.


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Graidon

Senior Member

06-26-2014

Oh good, a Jinx with a homophobic slur for a name intnetionally feeding and when someone else (not me) called her out on it, guess what - she said she's reporting her whole team.

AND GUESS WHAT?! I GOT AN AUTOMATED WARNING FROM THE SYSTEM!!!!

Guess I deserve that because I'm neutral-negative. Obviously this is my fault.

Whatever.