Can you get a chat ban without typing?

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B00tyWarriorr

Senior Member

06-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by TaNKeD View Post
Because people that actually get chat banned are a tiny fraction of the game's total population.

70% of those people don't get repeat restrictions after the first. You're trying to defend that 30% that receive multiples because as innocent as they might try to prove themselves on GD they were mega-ragers in game.

So really maybe worst case a few thousand people have to be treated like kids because they failed to learn when to keep their mouths shut at the beginning. Good riddance.
30% of 35 million players is still a lot of people.


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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06-26-2014
13 of 14 Riot Posts

Ulanopo, just want to say that we agree with most of your points.

For example, 100% agree that feedback is necessary and right now it's disabled because the Tribunal is in upgrade mode. But, chat restrictions are a temporary system, and it's being experimented with a lot to learn as much as we can about punishment systems so we can incorporate the lessons into the new Tribunal. For example, being able to sort through Tribunal cases with more accuracy, or even better funnel the right cases urgently to Player Support to expedite appeals or harsher bans. Every week with chat restrictions, a few things change, and some parameters change. As a side note, we agree with being more transparent about the system, but we're still waiting on some servers to get chat restrictions implemented and are waiting for that roll-out before we talk more in-depth about the system.

What's constructive and super helpful is posts like Ulanopo's and Eleshkai's that give us feedback about the concept of chat restrictions; for example, if players feel it's mandatory for cases to be human-reviewed, that's an important point that we know the Tribunal will help resolve when it's back up. What I don't want to get into the weeds about is the actual tweaking of the variables because those are easily changed in the system when we bring back the Tribunal.

---

Regarding whether players who don't talk at all should receive additional chat restrictions, it's actually a very edge case. For example, let's look at how the system works with this week's settings and variables.

Let's take 1000 players that have been chat restricted, and look at what happens with the current system which includes very little feedback.

1) About 67% of players improve their behaviors and never receive a 2nd set of chat restrictions.
- that's 670 players out of 1000 that are now in neutral or positive standing

2) For many players that receive chat restrictions, not talking at all actually removes their chat restrictions if they received 3-15 game chat restrictions. This is because we agree with Ulanopo, neutral rest states like not talking at all is "good enough" to lift chat restrictions. But, why are some players getting more chat restrictions even when they don't talk? That leads to point #3.

3) For players that are in the worst 1% of the entire playerbase, they receive 40+ chat restrictions.
- this is about 10 players out of every 1000 players
- since about 67% of players improve their behaviors enough in the 40 games, their chat restrictions are lifted
- this leaves about 3 players out of the 1000 that may receive additional penalties

4) For these worst 1% of players, for these 3 players out of the 1000, it's sometimes taking ~100-120 games to remove their chat restrictions, even if they don't talk at all. This means that sometimes these players are going through 3 to 4 batches of chat restrictions. This is because we have not perfected or optimized the tuning of the system, and it should have probably just given these players more chat restrictions to begin with. But, this is why we're moving rapidly to make sure we experiment efficiently and get to the optimized state ASAP.

---

We can always tweak the numbers so that players seeing problem #4 need to play through fewer games to reach the "neutral" state. However, due to the lack of transparency, it's easy to understand why players feel like the problems are more widespread than they are--that's our fault.


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pro4never

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Senior Member

06-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by B00tyWarriorr View Post
I shouldn't instantly become unbanned but the system should recognize that as an improvement in behavior

IT DOES!

If your next set of chat bans are for a lower # of games then that is the system recognizing that you are improving.

Honestly all riot needs to do is adjust the wording so that it lists it as 'reviewing your case in x games' rather than 'restricting you for x games' with a note on if you are improving or not each time it performs a review.


EG: Get 40 chat bans, finish and get banned for another 20? Congratz! You've improved a lot! Keep doing that and your going to be un-restricted in the next review or two at most.


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Ulanopo

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Senior Member

06-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by TaNKeD View Post
70% of those people don't get repeat restrictions after the first. You're trying to defend that 30% that receive multiples because as innocent as they might try to prove themselves on GD they were mega-ragers in game.
Lyte explicitly said that it was possible for someone who was neutral under the chat restrictions or who said nothing at all to receive a restriction based solely on the system's lack of confidence that they had reformed. If the system needs more games to make this determination, then the initial restriction should have been longer and they should be tuning that number for future applications. Receiving a restriction when you have done nothing wrong is confusing and unfair.

Please keep in mind that I am in no way defending anyone who exhibits toxicity. I am questioning this particular standard for reformation and its application.


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jzek

Member

06-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by pro4never View Post
They aren't being punished for saying nothing.

Think of the first set of bans as an initial review. You've been naughty but we'll look at your behavior in a week.

At the end of the week the system says "you're a bit better but not quite where we want you. Lets check again in 3 days" OR it says "you haven't improved at all/got worse. Lets bump it up to 10/15 days this time"


If the # of bans you get goes down each time then you are improving, if they are raising then you are still doing something negative in your games.
The problem with this logic is that Riot expects the offenders to be at a higher standard than a regular player.

If I play 45 games and do not chat, I will not be banned. However if i already have a ban and I don't speak for 45 games I can get an extension on my ban. It's not reasonable to expect toxic players to become nicer than average after their ban.


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Gods Grunt

Senior Member

06-26-2014

So basically what lyte is saying is that it's likely that we will never have this problem, so we should ignore it.


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pro4never

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Senior Member

06-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzek View Post
The problem with this logic is that Riot expects the offenders to be at a higher standard than a regular player.

If I play 45 games and do not chat, I will not be banned. However if i already have a ban and I don't speak for 45 games I can get an extension on my ban. It's not reasonable to expect toxic players to become nicer than average after their ban.

The difference is that if you are getting chat bans of that magnitude it's because you are one ofthe most toxic players league has ever seen.


You don't get a huge chunk of restrictions (say.. 50 games) without having been one of the most toxic players in your region. The system is looking for you to CONSISTENTLY improve before it throws you back in.

It's best to think of those length of bans more like a probation system where it ensures accountability and improvement over a long period of time while limiting interaction with others to ensure that you don't go back to old habits.


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Silverkillz

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Senior Member

06-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
I'm currently out of the office so I can't look at your specific account; however, there's some misunderstandings to how the system works.

If you were communicating in a toxic manner, you'll get a chat restriction; it's nearly impossible to get your first chat restriction without behaving toxic in some way.

However, what happens afterwards varies a lot from player to player. In each case, after the chat restriction ends for a player, the system reviews all the games you played recently and tries to determine if you've improved your behavior. If your behavior has gotten worse, you will get even more chat restrictions than what you got in the previous set of restrictions. If your behavior has improved dramatically and you are in neutral or positive standing, you will receive no chat restrictions. If you don't talk at all, it's still better than communicating in a toxic way so you may receive a few chat restrictions until you are in better standing. In fact, many players never talk in League of Legends and just use smart pings to communicate in-game and that's perfectly fine.

If the system is unsure about your current standing (because you never talked in your past sets of games, or you showed both positive and negative patterns of behavior in your games), you'll receive a few more chat restrictions so the system can collect more data. In ambiguous or extreme cases, Player Support will also assist the system with manual review of the data to determine next steps; for example, some players who become even more negative after a chat restriction may end up losing their Ranked rewards or receive permanent account bans if Player Support feels like the player is unlikely to ever reform.
That....is the absolute worst system I've ever heard.

So basically, you keep getting chat restrictions, even if your behavior is improving, until the system thinks you've had enough?


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jzek

Member

06-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by pro4never View Post
The difference is that if you are getting chat bans of that magnitude it's because you are one ofthe most toxic players league has ever seen.


You don't get a huge chunk of restrictions (say.. 50 games) without having been one of the most toxic players in your region. The system is looking for you to CONSISTENTLY improve before it throws you back in.

It's best to think of those length of bans more like a probation system where it ensures accountability and improvement over a long period of time while limiting interaction with others to ensure that you don't go back to old habits.
I see your point and from that perspective it makes sense. I think it would be more effective if they had something more like parole after each ban.


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Millea

Senior Member

06-26-2014

@Lyte, how about players who get honor ribbons AND chat restrictions? This just shows an inconsistent system.
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...at+restriction