daily reminder diana needs to be looked at still

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AlyCat103

Senior Member

06-20-2014

I honestly don't think Diana's in that bad of a place.

I've been playing a lot of (and trying to learn) Diana top lane. (I don't think I can comment on her mid or jungle, because I haven't played her that much mid/jungle, so my perspective is based on my experience with her top lane.)

Her passive is essential for winning trades top lane, and if there were to be any change, I would like to see a quality of life change where it shows how long, and how many more attacks till she has her passive (not just the current white glow she has now, and yes, counting to 3 is not that hard, but it would help :P). A baby buff for her passive would be nice, but I don't want to ask for too much XD (if buffed, it could make her top lane trading a little too strong maybe?)

I realize that these ideas very early, and may not be implemented, but until there's changes to utility junglers, and the dust settles with ardent censer, I think changing her would be premature.
I'll expand a little on these:

Lee, Eve, and Elise (I'm missing someone) aren't great picks with her in terms of team fighting, imo. A tanky, utility jungler, with hard engage on the other hand would create a much better situation for her (or any assassin I would imagine) to get into the other teams back line (while your jungler is engaging, disrupting, taking agro, and soaking damage). The team fights that typically happen based on currently popular junglers atm aren't in her favour unless she's doing (really) well.

The popular supports aren't very kind to diana either. Braum, Thresh, Leona, Morg, Karma (exception being karma perhaps). I typically have one choice for targeting - their ad carry, but they have a support who's going to eat my face off. With ardent censer I'm hoping we can see more ranged (squishy) supports. This would make 2 possible targets, as well not having to deal with the kits of the most popular supports currently. This factors back into her needing to do well so she can delete an ad carry before their meaty support turns their focus on her.

Her mid lane may have other issues. Like I mentioned, I primarily play her top lane, so my first item is almost always zhonya's (vs ad opponent - generally who I always end up lanning against). I would say it's essential on her. It gives you the small amount of time to get the cd for q, think about what to do next, whether you can kill your target, or think of a way out (either jumping on creeps, neutral monsters, or their front line for distance). It's possible on mid she's vs ap, and this item wouldn't be built until a lot later(?) I'm not sure.

Overall, I don't think she needs any big changes, or buffs right now. Small QOL change would be great (for her passive) but I think it's too soon to say where she'll be if and when we start seeing more utility jungles, and traditional supports.


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gypsylord

Champion Designer

06-20-2014
4 of 4 Riot Posts

Hey guys,
Thanks a ton for all the feedback. Am reading through the whole thread.

Again, it's unlikely these changes will happen. I'm just spitballing with you guys to better understand Diana's identity and what could be done with her.

Some general trends I'm picking up:
Assassin pattern would be missed.
What's a "fighter" anyways and how does that help define a champ's identity?
R damage spike at 6 would be important to laning and sorely missed.
Maybe switch R and E?
If she doesn't just kill a guy how does she survive in a fight?

Will try to respond to some of this stuff later this evening when I get more time. Gotta get back to work on next champ D:


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lnzane

Senior Member

06-20-2014

give her a better defensive mechanism (if it means buffing her shield/lifesteal/vamp/better cc on her moonfall)


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LumBeast

Member

06-20-2014

please don't change diana <3 she is perfect the way she is. she is the only one i trust to win a game when it needs winning


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ZantetsukenLion

Junior Member

06-20-2014

Quote:
Proposed change list:
Stats - Increase Base AS
P - Greatly increase base damage and AP ratio
Q - Decrease AP ratio
W - Unchanged
E - Turn into an actual vacuum (increase pull distance and radius)
R - Remove Damage (Lowers burst and incentivizes using for movement, no more double tapping a guy 2 feet from you to secure a kill)
First thoughts:
Okay as an avid Diana player I can see that you want her to have a niche of being a set up initiator with enough speed to keep up on people, in theory that sounds great, but here is the issue: Taking away damage on her ultimate makes it all but useless. Yes, I can jump to people i've marked with Q, but the debuff lasts for a very short time and doesn't really allow me to make use of it, and the ultimate itself has an average mana cost, 50/65/80, but if you keep that for a dash that I'm going to use once or twice in a fight to get on top of someone or multiple people just to auto-attack makes her feel less of an overall Goddess, as her name and theme makes her out to be, and more like a thorn in your side that you can't pull out and just sticks to you. Her 'vacuum' is an amazing ability and has a lot of potential to allow plays to be made, honestly, its the reason why people pick her over Akali or Fizz, who both have dashes at a low cost. The vacuum takes skill to make useful for the team and gives her teamfight potential on top of her ability to stick and do good damage.

How her Role/Roles Are
I've always seen her as a high risk jungler assassin and have played her as such for a long time, I've had the ability to destroy people quite well but at the same time I have to keep up with farming to get the items she needs to get that lead, If you can't farm effectively and gank at the same time her potential is hindered ridiculously. This was even the same when I used a Tanky/AS build on her for awhile (which is closer to your agile fighter concept) It worked, and it gave me a new role with good damage over time and good stick, but at the same time I had to farm and gank correctly and at the right times otherwise I'd fall off. Which is unlike Yi, whom can farm all day and then do quite well later, and also unlike heavy gank junglers like Maokai, whom need to gank avidly or else they fall off. She was a mix of the two and you couldn't do one without the other, meaning you have more management to deal with than others, Which I feel goes amazingly well with her variety of roles she can pull off. She can be a high damage assassin who can keep enemies close to her and her team allowing them to be picked off or set up with a different ult or CC for a wombo, or you can play her as the 'agile fighter' whom can tank a tower for a bit while either body-blocking or pulling the enemy to her team. In fact the assassin part of her allows her to go mid lane, whilst the fighter part allows her to go top, she has versatility in exchange for the high management.


Reason to pick and argument against changing her roles fully:
She brings more to the table than an Akali whom only has a slow for enemies with the vacuum, and can be a better tank for groups than say Fizz. While on the other hand: Akali has more stick and has stealth, allowing for guerrila fighting even in the middle of a teamfight, and Fizz overall has much better burst and has an easy to do escape. Yes they're all Assassins and compete for a certain role, but at the same time there are multiple hard push mid-laners: Orianna, Ziggs, Morgana, Cass, etc. each one of them is fighting for a spot in only ONE lane, Mid. Why pick one over the other? Because each one has a different kit and a different potential: Orianna has a shield and displacement along with buffs to her team, allowing for better teamfights and the ability to keep people alive. Ziggs has insane creep clear and can poke for days. Morgana has a snare and the ability to block CC effects on certain targets, not to mention her ult which works great with other ultimates that keep the team close. Cass has high damage over time abilities which can allow for securing kills and for wittling away before and during team fights. Each one has variety and one thing over the other which compels you to choose them, The fact that there is competition and thought behind which choice of champion for a niche means that you have enough variety to not go: Oh this person is better overall, and with a huge roster of champions thats quite a feat, even for one niche. I've already mentioned what Diana brings to the table that other AP Assassins don't showing that even though their the same niche there are strengths to each one that the other can't while still sharing a core concept for their role. On top of that since Diana can go top, mid, or jungle quite effectively it adds more planning and more interesting team comps than seeing the enemy pick Diana and instantly know where shes going and be able to tell due to how specialized she'd be as an agile fighter, what the other picks might be.


Ideas for changes:
Honestly where she's at is a bit unbalanced, but a rework instead of tweaks (counting huge changes like removing damage from ult as a rework more so than a tweak) seems more of a feasible solution than reworking her role completely in the game. Maybe up the risk by adding more management for mana as well? Higher ult mana cost? Or maybe have the Q mark set off on other spells and give new effects, i.e. for the vacuum: If an enemy with a mark is hit with the vacuum then it makes it larger and pulls harder. This would give more thoguht as to what you want to set off. Kill one person or set-up for a hard initiate in a teamfight? Or maybe if you hit them with Q and your passive sets off a minor burst happens, like a moonbeam hitting and causing her passive to hit more people. I feel that if you change her single-mindedness and added in more management and more risk to her in the case of mana and choosing which spell when it would be a bit less brain dead of an all in like the usual assassin version is and more of a thought driven: All spells for one, or One spell hits all? sort of trade off. This allows for more versatility and the freedom to tweak the numbers more and add more thought instead of a role change.

Just wishing to share my thoughts and hope you consider making a more decision driven change instead of a full role change.


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Holy Malevolence

Senior Member

06-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsylord View Post
If she doesn't just kill a guy how does she survive in a fight?
She regenerates.
'Cause you added spellvamp ratios, so that she'd be able to do that.


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Dantragk

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Senior Member

06-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsylord View Post
Hey guys,
Thanks a ton for all the feedback. Am reading through the whole thread.

Again, it's unlikely these changes will happen. I'm just spitballing with you guys to better understand Diana's identity and what could be done with her.

Some general trends I'm picking up:
Assassin pattern would be missed.
What's a "fighter" anyways and how does that help define a champ's identity?
R damage spike at 6 would be important to laning and sorely missed.
Maybe switch R and E?
If she doesn't just kill a guy how does she survive in a fight?

Will try to respond to some of this stuff later this evening when I get more time. Gotta get back to work on next champ D:
I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how Diana bursting someone down WITHOUT an escape is any worse than Fizz doing it WITH an escape. Fizz's Q = Diana Q + R with somewhat reduced range and similar damage. His W also procs a DOT and healing reduction. His ult slows + knocks up. His E does A LOT of damage AND makes him untargetable.

Or how about Kassadin? Or Kayle. Or Akali. Please tell me how you guys are fine with these champs level of burst but somehow thing that Diana needs to be toned down for w/e reason.


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Duriel

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Senior Member

06-20-2014

q marks shouldn't disappear when you ult to someone with a mark on them
meaning if you land it on 5 people you could ult each person
this would be pretty neat if the ult damage were reduced or removed and her ult had an effect added to it to make up for the damage it wouldn't do.

perhaps..
have her q tag targets still, ult no longer does damage, instead it triggers the mark on enemy champions, and when you hit your vacuum (e) targets with triggered markers get pulled closer to diana than targets without the marker?

or instead of those targets being pulled closer to diana, E could detonate the triggered markers to do damage to them inside of the vacuum, instead of her ult being the spell that applies damage, thus being more instant multi-target burst as opposed to drawn out burst relying on you landing consecutive q's and dashing to them with r. this would make her slightly safer, but require you to be very skillful with your q, even moreso than now.

obviously these won't be introduced but i'm just bringing in ideas, i suppose.


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Dantragk

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Senior Member

06-20-2014

I'll throw my hat into the Diana rework.
Passive:
Current:
Moonsilver Blade

Diana gains 20% additional attack speed. Every third strike cleaves nearby enemies for additional magic damage.

I would keep this the same. This is very core to Diana's identity. I would add one little bit:

New: For each minion hit by Moonsilver blade's magic damage Diana's cool downs are reduced by .5s. 1s for champions

Q:

Crescent Strike:
Current:
Active: Diana unleashes a bolt of lunar energy in an arc, dealing magic damage. Afflicts enemies struck with Moonlight, revealing them for 3 seconds.
Cost 55 Mana
Daamge: 60/95/130/165/200 - .07*AP Ratio
Cooldown 10/9/8/7/6 seconds
Range 830

New:
Cost 35 Mana
Daamge: 25/50/75/100/125 - 0.4*AP Ration
Cooldown 8/7/6/5/4 seconds
Range 830

Idea behind this is to reduce her overall burst and raise her sustain. Her Q would add in new interactions with Moonlight.

W:
Current:
Pale Cascade

Active: Diana creates three orbiting spheres that explode on contact with enemies dealing magic damage. She also gains a temporary shield that absorbs damage.

This shield is refreshed if the third sphere detonates.
Cost 60/70/80/90/100 mana
Damage 22/34/46/58/70 - 0.2*AP Ratio
Cooldown 10 seconds
Range 200

New:
This shield is partially refreshed for each sphere that detonates.
Cost 30/40/50/60/70 mana
Damage 40/60/70/80/100 - 0.5*AP Ratio
Cooldown 10 seconds
Range 250
Moonlight interaction: If the target has moon light and the ability that consumes it is Pale Cascade then the shield values per orb are increased by double.

E:
Current:
Moonfall

Active: Diana draws in all nearby enemies and slows them for 2 seconds.
Cost 70 Mana
Cooldown 26/24/22/20/18 seconds
Range 250

New:

Active: Diana draws in all nearby enemies and slows them for 2 seconds.
Cost 70 Mana
Cooldown 20/18/16/14/12 seconds
Range 300
Moonlight interaction: If Moonlight is consumed with Moonfall then the slow duration for all targets within moon fall is doubled.

R:
Current:
Lunar Rush

Active: Diana becomes the living embodiment of the vengeful moon, teleporting to an enemy and dealing magic damage.

Lunar Rush has no cooldown when used to teleport to an enemy afflicted with Moonlight.
Cost 50/65/80 Mana
Damage 100/160/220 - 0.6*AP Ratio
Cooldown 25/20/15 seconds
Range 825

New:
Lunar Rush has no cooldown when used to teleport to an enemy afflicted with Moonlight. While teleporting she takes no damage and because untargetable.
Cost 50/65/80 Mana
Damage: 0
Cooldown 25/20/15 seconds
Range 825

Moonlight interaction: Diana consumes the Moonlight with Lunar rush to intensify her Moonsilver Blade's power. She gains double the attack speed from MSB and gains 3 passive procs for the next 3 attacks or within the next 3 seconds.


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Raury

Senior Member

06-20-2014

i'm happy i made this thread