Item Nerfs - Care to explain?

First Riot Post
12345 ... 7
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kurzicide

Junior Member

12-15-2010

Why were these items nerfed if no one complained? What was the point, exactly?

Last Whisper: the go-to item for any attack speed champion. Tristana, Twisted Fate, Twitch, etc. used this item for it's powerful attack speed bonus. My TF build was personally completely messed up by this nerf. The biggest nerf of the patch, in my opinion.

Infinity Edge: while this was a small nerf, what was the reason exactly? No one complained about it before.

Randiun's Omen: a nerf that affects many tanks. One of the must-have items for any tank.

Innervating Locket: removed? Why? I never have used any champs that needed this item, but why remove it?

Phantom Dancer: dodge was removed. Zeal's dodge just goes away after buying PD? Lol. Personally used this with TF also. Dodge was useful here-and-there when using it on TF. One of the must-haves for Jax.

Banshee's Veil: never cared to buy this item, but the nerf was still pointless. Many people choose to use this item for tanks or practically anything.

This is what I don't like about Riot. They don't explain their reasonings for nerfing certain things. They just do it because they can. For anyone that has played Guild Wars before, I think Riot should follow ArenaNet by telling us why they nerf certain skills/items.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ironblades

Senior Member

12-15-2010

lets take a look,
Last Whisper its current state allows for more champs to use it. it may be considered a nerf to a couple champs but now allows it to be used on hit on effect charecters.

Infinity Edge: small nerf before it was basicaly 1 as item and this item and ranged could just spam elixirs, now there a small increase in inscentive to get other items.

Randiun's Omen you said it your self a must have item. When the item is go to for 90% of tanks it could use a small nerf.

innervating Locket- watch a game were a fed urdy had it or gragas and see them solo the other team.

Phantom Dancer- this has been said to reduce the rng factor in fights, my question is why is crit still around

Banshee's Veil: i believe the math is now 130 gold for 30 sec cd spell block. Still incrediable powerfull, infact i porobably still will get it on shen.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kurzicide

Junior Member

12-15-2010

Last Whisper is one of the most effective items for an attack speed champion. There's plenty of attack damage items already. Since they completely reworked Malady to be an abomination item (something that doesn't really fit for any champion), attack speed champions need SOMETHING to still use.

What do you mean "small incentive"? Infinity Edge is a mainstay item for most physical damage champions, to go along with their other attack damage items. People aren't going to take the item out of their build just because it lost 5 attack damage, but still, it wasn't needed because the nerf isn't going to change how people use the item.

Randiun's Omen IS a must-have item for tanks. It was made to serve its purpose as a tank-only item.

I've never seen a Gragas or Udyr kill the whole other team themselves. Maybe you shouldn't feed them? Innervating Locket does NOT make them OP.

Why are you bringing Phantom Dancer's speed into the matter? I'm talking about the Dodge chance.

Banshee's Veil's nerf wasn't needed. While it was a small nerf, it still matters.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Rawrful

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-15-2010

What? Its all blatantly obvious.

Last Whisper was changed because it was far and away the best attack speed item in the entire game bar none. Now you have to choose other options.

IE was nerfed a little because it is bought 100% of the time on phys carries. If an item is so good you buy it 100% of the time, it is is quite possibly OP.

Omen was nerfed because it was the best armor item in the game. I don't think it needed to be nerfed as much as it was, but it was THE go-to armor item on tanks.

Locket was removed because it was idiotically OP on Gragas and Sona (And really good on Udyr), and any changes made to it would have made it worthless on other champions, but still ok on them.

Phantom had its dodge removed because dodge is the most annoying stat in the game and will hopefully be phased out in a few more patches. Randomness is not a good thing in a competitive game. Also, Zeal has no dodge and never has.

Banshees was nerfed because in any game with non-newbs there were likely to be 10 of them late game. It was (and still is) the best anti-caster item in the entire game.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

energybar

Senior Member

12-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurzicide View Post
Why were these items nerfed if no one complained? What was the point, exactly?

Last Whisper: the go-to item for any attack speed champion. Tristana, Twisted Fate, Twitch, etc. used this item for it's powerful attack speed bonus. My TF build was personally completely messed up by this nerf. The biggest nerf of the patch, in my opinion.

Infinity Edge: while this was a small nerf, what was the reason exactly? No one complained about it before.

Randiun's Omen: a nerf that affects many tanks. One of the must-have items for any tank.

Innervating Locket: removed? Why? I never have used any champs that needed this item, but why remove it?

Phantom Dancer: dodge was removed. Zeal's dodge just goes away after buying PD? Lol. Personally used this with TF also. Dodge was useful here-and-there when using it on TF. One of the must-haves for Jax.

Banshee's Veil: never cared to buy this item, but the nerf was still pointless. Many people choose to use this item for tanks or practically anything.

This is what I don't like about Riot. They don't explain their reasonings for nerfing certain things. They just do it because they can. For anyone that has played Guild Wars before, I think Riot should follow ArenaNet by telling us why they nerf certain skills/items.

Agreed +1

I would love to hear riots reason for this. I feel that they should include reasons for nerfing certain things. Would help a lot. Host a meaningfull discussion maybe, get players involved. It seems like they dont take/want any feedback. But personally, I think they're ruining the game. Again, if they could provide me with a reason, I probably would not think this way.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xypherous

Systems Designer

12-15-2010
1 of 8 Riot Posts

This post shows some errors in understanding that puzzles me.

Quote:
Last Whisper: the go-to item for any attack speed champion. Tristana, Twisted Fate, Twitch, etc. used this item for it's powerful attack speed bonus. My TF build was personally completely messed up by this nerf. The biggest nerf of the patch, in my opinion.
Last Whisper, does not, in fact, give more attack speed than a Recurve Bow. That's not why characters used it. It was the fact that it gave 40% armor penetration along with it. Otherwise, Tristana and TF would still be fine because they could simply get a Recurve Bow for their attack speed. If attack speed was the statistic you cared about, SoTD/Starks would be more than acceptable.

The combination of stats was deemed way too strong, as it was two *high* multiplicative stats on a cheap item.

Quote:
Infinity Edge: while this was a small nerf, what was the reason exactly? No one complained about it before.
Infinity Edge is the number #1 carry item in the game. If you were a ranged carry and did not get either Bloodrazor of IE, you were doing it wrong and not knowing why. Ranged Carry dominance ties hand in hand with I.E.

The reasoning 'No one complained about it before' is tenuous at best. If we change things while there are complaints, the critique could be made that we are reactionary. But if we cannot change things unless there are complaints, then we are forced to be reactionary. Having many people complain or not is not an indicator of whether or not something needs to be fixed, it is simply an indicator that people are unaware of current exploits.

See also: Balance by Obscurity.

Quote:
Randiun's Omen: a nerf that affects many tanks. One of the must-have items for any tank.
There's a reason why the tanky DPS meta was so strong. A large part of it was that almost all the tank items were overpowered.

Quote:
Innervating Locket: removed? Why? I never have used any champs that needed this item, but why remove it?
Explained here: http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...d.php?t=392906

TL DR: Made tanks crazy. Could not nerf it, because fundamentally, tanks would always use it better than supports. Would make supports that used it feel completely gipped if it was balanced to only be 'ok' on tanks.

Quote:
Phantom Dancer: dodge was removed. Zeal's dodge just goes away after buying PD? Lol. Personally used this with TF also. Dodge was useful here-and-there when using it on TF. One of the must-haves for Jax.
Zeal doesn't have dodge. High-tier Jax players didn't get PD for the Dodge. Cheap crit items are severely lacking in our game. Will concede that we might need more dodge options.

Quote:
Banshee's Veil: never cared to buy this item, but the nerf was still pointless. Many people choose to use this item for tanks or practically anything.
The item was deemed a little too strong at countering casters.

This last bit will sound quite upsetting, I apologize in advance, but I am genuinely confused at one thing: From the errors you've made in describing the items to your repeated claims of 'I never bought this item', what is your major concern regarding these items? And if so, have I addressed them?

It just seems like you don't have a whole lot of experience with the items but wouldn't confusion at any change in items that are unfamiliar to you be a natural response then?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Tony Hayward

Member

12-15-2010

You guys realize that other "go to" items will develop right?

You better identify those fast and nerf them next patch.

Edit: Ah well, I guess the best thing to do is figure out what they are myself rather than qq on the forums about all the nerfing.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kurzicide

Junior Member

12-15-2010

Excuse me on my assumption of Zeal having any Dodge chance. I had always assumed it had, for some reason. My mistake.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Weaver2

Senior Member

12-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
There's a reason why the tanky DPS meta was so strong. A large part of it was that almost all the tank items were overpowered.
I feel like it's still quite strong. Should we expect to see more tanky DPS nerfs in the future?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Appo

Member

12-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
This post shows some errors in understanding that puzzles me.

Last Whisper, does not, in fact, give more attack speed than a Recurve Bow. That's not why characters used it. It was the fact that it gave 40% armor penetration along with it. Otherwise, Tristana and TF would still be fine because they could simply get a Recurve Bow for their attack speed. If attack speed was the statistic you cared about, SoTD/Starks would be more than acceptable.

The combination of stats was deemed way too strong, as it was two *high* multiplicative stats on a cheap item.

Infinity Edge is the number #1 carry item in the game. If you were a ranged carry and did not get either Bloodrazor of IE, you were doing it wrong and not knowing why. Ranged Carry dominance ties hand in hand with I.E.

The reasoning 'No one complained about it before' is tenuous at best. If we change things while there are complaints, the critique could be made that we are reactionary. But if we cannot change things unless there are complaints, then we are forced to be reactionary. Having many people complain or not is not an indicator of whether or not something needs to be fixed, it is simply an indicator that people are unaware of current exploits.

See also: Balance by Obscurity.

There's a reason why the tanky DPS meta was so strong. A large part of it was that almost all the tank items were overpowered.

Explained here: http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...d.php?t=392906

TL DR: Made tanks crazy. Could not nerf it, because fundamentally, tanks would always use it better than supports. Would make supports that used it feel completely gipped if it was balanced to only be 'ok' on tanks.

Zeal doesn't have dodge. High-tier Jax players didn't get PD for the Dodge. Cheap crit items are severely lacking in our game. Will concede that we might need more dodge options.

The item was deemed a little too strong at countering casters.

This last bit will sound quite upsetting, I apologize in advance, but I am genuinely confused at one thing: From the errors you've made in describing the items to your repeated claims of 'I never bought this item', what is your major concern regarding these items? And if so, have I addressed them?

It just seems like you don't have a whole lot of experience with the items but wouldn't confusion at any change in items that are unfamiliar to you be a natural response then?
Yay for riot logic flaws! " If we change things while there are complaints, the critique could be made that we are reactionary. But if we cannot change things unless there are complaints, then we are forced to be reactionary." You aren't forced to do anything, thats a false dichotomy there buddy.

"There's a reason why the tanky DPS meta was so strong. A large part of it was that almost all the tank items were overpowered." Well tank items do play a role in the tanky DPS meta, yet the only reason why tank DPS are able to kill is because they have DPS. L2FigureOutProblems.

"Would make supports that used it feel completely gipped if it was balanced to only be 'ok' on tanks." Why would supports feel gipped that its only "ok" on tanks, that makes zero sense, they shouldn't care about that it sucks on a tank if they play a support where the items better.

"Last Whisper, does not, in fact, give more attack speed than a Recurve Bow. That's not why characters used it. It was the fact that it gave 40% armor penetration along with it. Otherwise, Tristana and TF would still be fine because they could simply get a Recurve Bow for their attack speed. If attack speed was the statistic you cared about, SoTD/Starks would be more than acceptable."

Hey lets throw logic in a hole and cover it up with a blanket for this one guys. Yes SOTD would be better because it gives 15% MORE AS. NO starks would not be acceptable by this logic because it gives the same amount of AS and no one buys starks for the AS, I mean according to you you would just buy a recurve bow instead. You might as well take recurve bow out of Madrids since people get it for the passive not the AS, and Wit's end because you get it for the passive not the AS . All by your logic that is.

"Zeal doesn't have dodge. High-tier Jax players didn't get PD for the Dodge. Cheap crit items are severely lacking in our game. Will concede that we might need more dodge options."

So riot changes item stats based on what the reasons high tier players use them for. What about all the low tier players riot? Didn't they get PD because of the dodge chance?

In fact lower the cost of an IE if you want to make that not a universal carry item and have a cheap crit item. Oh hey lets look back, you wanted a less tank/DPS mg?! Well lets kill two birds with one stone and get your cheap crit item and lower the dmg on it. About as game changing as everything else you have already done anyway.


12345 ... 7