@Riot, This bait and switch was just Wrong.

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fadĂȘ

Senior Member

05-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippalus View Post
There is no Rioter I know that would want to work for a company that made choices like that. Sacrificing team morale and player trust for a few pennies may be the norm at some companies but it's the furthest thing from reality here. Almost everyone at Riot (me included) was a player first and still has that mindset.

And because it's random, there are so many examples where we nerf champions before skin releases as well. Then we get threads talking about how we're stupid instead of devious.
"A FEW PENNIES" LOL WHAT. Yeah Riot only makes a few pennies off each champion skin release. Kappa.


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1v1 me at turret

Senior Member

05-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippalus View Post
You're missing the point - there's nothing to plan for. Balance changes don't affect pricing and content launches and vice versa. Why would we need special access to information? It would only create the temptation to do the kind of underhanded stuff that you like to accuse us of.
The issue here is, and is present with the whole panth thing... is you guys should be knowing what is happening at least in short term for balance and such... The launch of the nerf + being undocumented/being announced after the release of the skin has been handled poorly. I think you and I can agree that the minute this hit, you and Morello should have been the ones to address the issue... far sooner than current. It took longer than it should have due to lack of communication on Riot's part.

My one big question is, how do you guys plan on moving on from this? I'm glad to see that behind the scenes... Riot trying to help those out, but to be honest... this was handled.. in MY opinion at least, as rather unprofessional.


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MetalGearTeemu

Senior Member

05-20-2014

Never trust marketing. Always assume the worst because that is most often the case.

They can run damage control here, but someone saw this, saw a potentially ill received nerf coming to a champion they just hyped a skin for, and quietly removed the note for gain.

that is just how the world works.


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Phreak

Shoutcaster

05-20-2014
9 of 10 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippalus View Post
There is no Rioter I know that would want to work for a company that made choices like that. Sacrificing team morale and player trust for a few pennies may be the norm at some companies but it's the furthest thing from reality here. Almost everyone at Riot (me included) was a player first and still has that mindset.

And because it's random, there are so many examples where we nerf champions before skin releases as well. Then we get threads talking about how we're stupid instead of devious.
I actually want to hop on something here:

The Core Gameplay guys do work with new skins sometimes. But I want to raise two things to your attention to specify how:

1. The team plans its changes in advance. They'll say, "Okay, let's take a look at X champion." "Alright I'm working on it. When the changes are ready, I'll submit them." Sometimes that happens to be the same patch as a skin, sometimes it's a change in isolation. Either way, the patch planning is done by the team itself, not by Hippalus saying, "Yo guys, buff this guy before his legendary comes out."

2. Core Gameplay does playtest the new skins, but they test it for feel, readability, etc. Numerous times, they send the skins BACK, make the skins artists take MORE time on them, DELAY the release, and ultimately suck up resources that "could" be used to make more skins or whatever. The playtests literally cost us money because their goal is releasing skins that work better for you guys in game.


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1v1 me at turret

Senior Member

05-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
I actually want to hop on something here:

The Core Gameplay guys do work with new skins sometimes. But I want to raise two things to your attention to specify how:

1. The team plans its changes in advance. They'll say, "Okay, let's take a look at X champion." "Alright I'm working on it. When the changes are ready, I'll submit them." Sometimes that happens to be the same patch as a skin, sometimes it's a change in isolation. Either way, the patch planning is done by the team itself, not by Hippalus saying, "Yo guys, buff this guy before his legendary comes out."

2. Core Gameplay does playtest the new skins, but they test it for feel, readability, etc. Numerous times, they send the skins BACK, make the skins artists take MORE time on them, DELAY the release, and ultimately suck up resources that "could" be used to make more skins or whatever. The playtests literally cost us money because their goal is releasing skins that work better for you guys in game.
If that was the case, why was it first addressed as a strictly visual change when it obviously wasn't? I mean, this wasn't just about the skin. This was about a bug fix that they decided to fix because they were working on DS Pantheon. Regardless, on that end it looks more incomplete. Someone didn't do their job and document it properly which if I were heading that project... I would be having a stern talking with the team that pushed this with a bright green "Go".


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OctaSteve

Senior Member

05-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
I actually want to hop on something here:

The Core Gameplay guys do work with new skins sometimes. But I want to raise two things to your attention to specify how:

1. The team plans its changes in advance. They'll say, "Okay, let's take a look at X champion." "Alright I'm working on it. When the changes are ready, I'll submit them." Sometimes that happens to be the same patch as a skin, sometimes it's a change in isolation. Either way, the patch planning is done by the team itself, not by Hippalus saying, "Yo guys, buff this guy before his legendary comes out."

2. Core Gameplay does playtest the new skins, but they test it for feel, readability, etc. Numerous times, they send the skins BACK, make the skins artists take MORE time on them, DELAY the release, and ultimately suck up resources that "could" be used to make more skins or whatever. The playtests literally cost us money because their goal is releasing skins that work better for you guys in game.
How does the process work to determine whether, or not, a skin is allowed in Riot tournaments?


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Xonra

Senior Member

05-20-2014

You guys (The Red posters) seem to be partially missing the issue.

Sure some people are yelling "Bait and Switch" but it doesn't seem to be just that, in fact I don't believe that at all. I think the core of this is...you broke Pantheon's ult to fix a "bug" that has become a part of his mechanic for years.

Part of the cool factor of Panth was dropping down, getting off your leap and stun as you landed (if you were close enough) and it was part of that "Yeeeaaah I'm a badass!" thing you get with Panth's ult.

His ult has been attempted to be nerfed a few times recently and it seems convenient this finally happens AND just as his new skin comes out, which is I believe a side note that unfortunately is being blown up justly or otherwise.

The fact is you have completely broke his ult. It wasn't just the leaping around that made his ult "cool" it was all the interactions with it. You leap up, land and pounce and stun like "RAWR!" now it's like, you leap in...land...and watch as YOU get stunned before you land because you can't interact with the enemy but they can somehow interact with you, or they just walk off, which is possibly even more frustrating.


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Fusionxw

Senior Member

05-20-2014

What a useless thread. I would never work for Riot just for the fact that I would have to deal with all these dumb idiots


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Xonra

Senior Member

05-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllStarzw View Post
dumb idiots
<_<


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shadowsaotome

Senior Member

05-20-2014

It seems like this has become quite the polarizing issue. Full disclosure, I'm not great at this game, I just enjoy playing. I'm Bronze IV and still learning a heck of a lot about gameplay mechanics and in-game decision-making. I don't even own Pantheon, but from what I've read here and other places, there are two significant issues.

1) This bug that was fixed has apparently been there for a long time. If that is incorrect, I would appreciate a red correction. From what other players have been saying, this bug has been apparent for so long that many didn't even realize it was a bug at all, that Pantheon's ult was operating as intended. Having seen the official responses concerning the bugfix, it certainly seems as though Riot was simply trying to make the skill effect correspond to the skill image/animation. The issue here is that, to my knowledge, there was no indication to the player base that Pantheon's ult was bugged to begin with. Had that information been widely known beforehand, this fix would not have brought nearly the response that it did.
TL;DR Any known bugs should be listed and easily accessible to the players so that everyone is informed.

2) The timing of the announcement, coupled with the fact that the change had already taken place, put a huge strain on players' trust in Riot and various departments within Riot. While I personally believe this was not a setup or bait-and-switch, it is easy to see why players might think this was the case. Frankly I'm not sure how to go about rebuilding that trust; giving skin refunds was a great step in the right direction. A lot of players will rage and continue to rage, regardless of how hurtful or insane their rantings sound. This game invokes a lot of passion in people, and when tempers are flared, the mouth tends to act before the brain can stop it. That being said, the players need to understand that over-the-top rage/troll posts aren't going to accomplish anything except prevent reds from wanting to read anything GD puts out.

Just putting in my two cents. I think y'all at Riot have done a great job overall with this game, I continue to enjoy playing it, and I am confident that this situation will in time be resolved. Riot is not perfect, mistakes are made; I don't think any Rioter would claim otherwise. Keep calm and game on folks.