Guinsoo is working on Fiora

First Riot Post
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Super Explosion

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasado View Post
after there were months and months of threads asking to look at Fiora
Well this is sort of what happens if you wait too long to rework or don't catch it in development.

Like, the stuff Guinsoo is saying about Fiora is perhaps stuff I've said since her release.

But now it's years later and some people have perhaps invested a lot of time.

If anything, the negative feedback should be taken as a directive to ensure that champions are fun and unique at. every. release.

Unique strategic effects, specific champion pickability for strategies, low-to-no interchangeability. It's a team versus team game, no reason each team has to play exactly the same way for the goal. There could be so much more interaction and in-game strategy.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Critmaster Garen View Post
while fiora generally plays like an assassin at the moment, i would say yasuo and yi make pretty good melee carries at the moment.

yi has a lot of reliable damage built into his kit, and scales extremely well with attack speed. while they gave yasuo an edge over other champs by allowing him to outmaneuver them, and managing his shield.
Nono, they're not carries: Assassins with rapid repeat assassinations are not carries.

A carry is a sustained damage dealer, it perhaps should not usually oneshot.

So this is why you perhaps don't see Yi or Yasuo or Fiora picked competitively instead of a marksman.

Because on almost every competitive team the marksman is the real carry, and Yi/Fiora/Yasuo is mostly just trying to assassinate that marksman.


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Guinsoo

Game Designer

04-06-2014
9 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShroudedInLight View Post
I've got a simple question about the future Fiora ult and her kit as a whole that I feel is important because it address a fear of mine. Simply: Will W be considered one spell, or two?
Each entire W rotation counts as one spell; similarly each full Q rotation counts as a single spell cast. Not each individual cast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linna Excel View Post
Guinsoo, what's it like working on old champs instead of designing new ones? Is it easier, harder, or just different?
It's definitely harder. As you can see, players have strong opinions about their favorite champions, so changing them is never easy. I also think it's more enjoyable - I think there's a more clear design path since you have an idea for how the character plays now and how you might want them to play; that's a lot harder when making a character from scratch, which is like setting sail for the new world without having any idea where it actually is or what it looks like, but you'll know it when you get there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiSkillshot View Post
Pokemon has four OHKO moves, though. Fissure, sheer cold, guillotine, and horn drill. Though, the way that game works, OHKOs can work in its PvP environment.
Those are all always banned in any serious match or competition. They also ban moves that give an enemy a chance to miss and a few other things. Pokemon PvP has a steady pacing based around either matching your poke's types and attack types versus the opponents and vice versa (essentially trying to always super effectively hit while resisting his attacks), or trying to stall by countering all of his threats with defenders that can slowly whittle them down. OHKOs do not fit into Pokemon at all. I'd guess Baton Pass teams are probably a lot stronger in the new gen so I guess that can be a third type of team, where at the start of the match you focus on super buffing your pokemon and then passing that buff to a super hard hitting mon that can sweep the entire enemy team, regardless of typing. But even this team has counterplay, as taking out the buff chain at any point basically wins you the match, as does getting off a Clear Smog or Haze, or priority Brave Birding it down with Talonflame, etc. Not to mention when you see his team will likely to be Baton Pass, you can just use a starting pokemon that has a buffing move of its own, so while the opponent is using some turns to buff and some turns to Baton Pass, you can just buff the whole time, and then out sweep their sweeper. It gets a little complicated if they start with a Scolipede or Blaziken (banned) because they can buff their speed every turn while Sword Dancing, but for example a Volcarona can Quiver Dance every turn to buff her dps and speed (and sp def which is admittedly useless vs a Sword Dance BP team). There's counterplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixia View Post
How is it nothing like Fiora at all? Riposte clearly now blocks spells on top of auto-attacks. With a 0.75 second CD, you might as well be untargetable in a duel (you know, because she's a duelist). It would take multiple people piling on top of her to get through that, and even then she still is gonna have outs, because look at one of those skills listed and the implication of what it does. Disengage, with the implication looking like it's basically reverse Lunge. Lunge in, Disengage out, Riposte->Thrust in, Lunge, Disengage, Lunge, Riposte->Thrust, Disengage, etc. Keeping in mind as well that you don't even need to Riposte every thing the opponent does, because if it's a skillshot, it'll be hard for them to hit you with you dancing all around them. If you're a skilled player, you just classic Blade Waltzed them, except you had to actually hit buttons instead of sitting back and watching it go on its own for a couple seconds so now suddenly you look more pro. Plus you have more control over it. Man, remember when you just really wanted to focus a certain target, but there were multiple opponents there so who Blade Waltz targeted was beyond your control? You can fix that now.
This is definitely what we're striving for. If you break Blade Waltz down to its primal components, it's a bunch of dashes, it makes you invulnerable, and it does damage. All of those pieces are there on her kit already (with a few enhancements for example to the Riposte).

Quote:
Originally Posted by lessuknow View Post
@Guinsoo I don't know if you'll see this, but I have a simple request: Make Fiora's ult like Riven's, where she gets buffed but also has the ability to use it.
That's definitely a possibility I'm open to. Maybe a Coup de Grace to end the ultimate. Sounds kinda neat. Filed away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slovakattack View Post
The reason I bring this up is that, from the ultimate tooltip, it seems like she can't normally parry while moving. While it's an early iteration, that is a dangerous game you play, as ADCs are often just as squishy as they are deadly, and need every once of mobility they can get. If her kit feels overloaded to you in playtesting, I would find another place to stick the cap on her power rather than do it to her mobility.
I don't disagree with this point. The benefit to starting with Riposte as an immobile spell are multifold. First, it makes the Blade Waltz enhancement to it feel super epic; second, it puts maximum counterplay into the opponent's hands to counter out the extreme defensive capabilities in the skill, matching most closely the fantasy of extreme counterplay between Fiora and opponent; and third it allows us to increase the power budget in a successful Riposte to the maximum (because it's harder to pull off).

We are definitely not opposed to making it more mobile if it doesn't work out well, but this is the appropriate starting point, I think. We'd definitely have to make it weaker in terms of amount of damage blocked and/or return Thrust damage dealt if she could normally move during it.


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Samuel L Jaxx

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Nono, they're not carries: Assassins with rapid repeat assassinations are not carries.

A carry is a sustained damage dealer, it perhaps should not usually oneshot.

So this is why you perhaps don't see Yi or Yasuo or Fiora picked competitively instead of a marksman.

Because on almost every competitive team the marksman is the real carry, and Yi/Fiora/Yasuo is mostly just trying to assassinate that marksman.
Fed Xin is an assassin.

Fed Xin will carry a game and assassinate all your team.

HA HEH TA WHA HO AH WEH WHA HA TA HO HA WHA HEH!


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel L Jaxx View Post
Fed Xin is an assassin.

Fed Xin will carry a game and assassinate all your team.
Well I'm more talking about the 'unit classification'.

It is possible to 'carry a game' with pretty much any champion.

But the style in which that occurs being referred to as a 'carry' may tend to be high sustained low burst damage. Like a fire rather than an explosion.


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Xeynid

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel L Jaxx View Post
Fed Xin is an assassin.

Fed Xin will carry a game and assassinate all your team.

HA HEH TA WHA HO AH WEH WHA HA TA HO HA WHA HEH!
Hey guess what?
Fed Darius is a tank.
Fed Darius will carry your team.

Tanks are Carries now?


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Twin Royal

Junior Member

04-06-2014

Welcome Back Guinsoo!

I was wondering if you could give us a sneak peek at what Fiora's new passive might be?


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tallgiraffe29

Junior Member

04-06-2014

Xin is a fighter, he is a god damn lancer.
Fiora is a fencer, fencing is about duel.

What you do to duel? You train as hell for years to have 10 seconds of fight.

My guess? Fiora is supposed to be an assassin, farming is her training, you engange, you duel, you kill..
Why the **** are you trying to make a fencer into a samurai (fights for almost 2 hours deflecting every **** and getting their ass tired). Why do you keep pushing her into a yasuo style?


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Fomorian27

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Senior Member

04-06-2014

Just in regards to managing expectations, since you have become really active suddenly, will this rework be a really long way off? I know I personally am looking forward to it, so here's hoping for a soon rather than soon(tm) release.


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Transient Eons

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by tallgiraffe29 View Post
Xin is a fighter, he is a god damn lancer.
Fiora is a fencer, fencing is about duel.

What you do to duel? You train as hell for years to have 10 seconds of fight.

My guess? Fiora is supposed to be an assassin, farming is her training, you engange, you duel, you kill..
Why the **** are you trying to make a fencer into a samurai (fights for almost 2 hours deflecting every **** and getting their ass tired). Why do you keep pushing her into a yasuo style? Assassin! not a melee adc.
As someone who's been fencing for a while now, her current kit is a terrible "fencing" kit. And I like where he's going with the rework. Plus, fencing matches are rarely "10 seconds of fight," depending on your level of skill and which weapon you're fencing with. I've had a match go for about 5 minutes (including overtime) before, and it was only a 5 touch match, when several formats will go for 15 touches.