Guinsoo is working on Fiora

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Gixia

Senior Member

04-06-2014

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Originally Posted by BlackAndSilver View Post
Sure I also hated Kass too, I'm sure everyone did, but wtf did they do to him? Turn him into some kind of AP bruiser? Whatever it is it's boring and it's definitely not Kass. And the fact that I've seen maybe TWO Kass's since the rework may prove that (and those were the day of the patch).
Actually, considering even old Kassadin's kit had an ability that was intended to reward you for getting in there and auto-attacking the enemy champion, but was pretty much made irrelevant because of his ridiculously huge burst and squishiness that made him want to be in and out in the duration it took the silence to wear off... The question really becomes why he wasn't already a little bit bruiserish before? And really, what is it that makes new Kassadin boring? Because, other than the fact that he now gets a shield instead of silencing, on a basic mechanical level he's pretty much the same. Still lots of rabid teleporting around, still innate anti-mage magic defense, still can jump in and spit up purple goo all over you, still shoots ball from distance... The way his auto-attack ability works has changed in order to better reward and encourage him to get in there, but aside from that what's really different on a fundamental level?

Besides, 2 Kassadins is still a lot more than the 0 that were around before when he was banned 100% of the time for being degenerate.

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And as you're explaining how each reworked champion is keeping their "identity" abilities, Fiora isn't getting that. This new ult is NOTHING like Fiora at all. No longer untargetable, now RELIES on dashing around which more often than not was useless unless able to dash to allies/wards. Which she can't. And has some steroid thrown in. It's just BORING. Just like what they did to all the other ones, made them boring.
How is it nothing like Fiora at all? Riposte clearly now blocks spells on top of auto-attacks. With a 0.75 second CD, you might as well be untargetable in a duel (you know, because she's a duelist). It would take multiple people piling on top of her to get through that, and even then she still is gonna have outs, because look at one of those skills listed and the implication of what it does. Disengage, with the implication looking like it's basically reverse Lunge. Lunge in, Disengage out, Riposte->Thrust in, Lunge, Disengage, Lunge, Riposte->Thrust, Disengage, etc. Keeping in mind as well that you don't even need to Riposte every thing the opponent does, because if it's a skillshot, it'll be hard for them to hit you with you dancing all around them. If you're a skilled player, you just classic Blade Waltzed them, except you had to actually hit buttons instead of sitting back and watching it go on its own for a couple seconds so now suddenly you look more pro. Plus you have more control over it. Man, remember when you just really wanted to focus a certain target, but there were multiple opponents there so who Blade Waltz targeted was beyond your control? You can fix that now.

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But that's my personal feeling toward it, I'm sure other people are different and will spam Fiora every day until she's changed. As for me, it just seems like a waste of time. No use in playing something that won't exist in a month.
Let's not use real life as an example, let's JUST use video games. Why would you play any online game ever then, knowing that the inevitable march of technology, progress, and business means that one day the servers will be shut down and the game will become completely unplayable. Some online games have already gone through this, and god forbid, someday it'll likely happen to League to (albeit hopefully in the far, far, far far future). Eventually the game simply will not exist anymore. Why bother playing? Is it because you can actually see Fiora's end down the road, because it's been announced, while everything else is still some nebulous 'far future' that you can't see yet?

Plus I can't tell if you're exagerating to make a point or what, but Fiora's rework isn't coming in a month, assuming the path Guinsoo is following works out and they don't need to start from scratch, any remake for her is still months and months down the road. I'd wager 6-8. At least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAndSilver View Post
I'm not convinced that these reworks are useful at all or liked by anyone. Like really, where did all their players go?
How many of their players only liked the old character for those same unhealthy cheese tactics that Riot reworked them to get rid of?

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You can always hard CC her during her ult,
lolwut?


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Critmaster Garen

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Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixia View Post
lolwut?
you can.

it has been explained multiple times, than fioras individual strikes on her ult are channeled. you can break her ult by ccing her with oe cc, like lets say a malphite ult, sona ult, nami bubble, or alistar pulverize. etc.

you can also play champs like akali or build zonyas on any ap champ. if her target enters stealth, becomes untargetable or invincible (kayle, poppy, tryn) she will execute her ult without dealing damage.

you can also just exhaust her, the moment she gets in melee range. you now have enough time to kill her. if she tries to avoid death by ulting you, her ult deals close to no damage.

against a single target, 50% of her ult damage is in the first hit. if you hit barrier or a defensive steroid it will take off a significant amount of damage from the ability.

there are just numerous ways of screwing her over and cancel her ult.


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Guitar Solo

Junior Member

04-06-2014

Okay so whenever I see talks of reworks I feel like they're done with not a lot of... thematic cohesion?

What are Fioras Iconic things? She dashes a lot, and has a parry. So her core skills are her bread and butter. The ult doesn't live up to the fantasy of "nimble duelist" right?

Riposte is iconic, but not really delivering on the theme of fencing so much. Riposte could be turned into a sort of, spell shield that gives movement and maybe a short burst of lack of unit collision. The idea is you're slipping through the defenses of the enemy that made the wrong move right? Deliver it. Make her dangerous and give her an opening if she parrys something.

The lunge everyone is fine with, and probably one of the things not needing to be touched at all.

The other thing fencers want to do is provoke attacks and create opportunity because of them. Wouldn't it be cool if fioras last basic skill was somewhere between wukongs crushing blow and quinns harrier. A close combat skill that worked one on one. It would provide that sterotypical fencer pose fantasy, of her bending her knees and extending her sword for a critical blow.

work the ult from when the rest of the kit is set. I feel like fiora's themes lie in what she can do regularly, not occasionally. Shyvana is cool because she becomes a dragon, but heimerdinger is cool because he does lots of things, and his ult makes those things cooler. Fiora is more like heimer than shyvana, if you get what I'm saying


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Mariachi Duck

Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
It's something we've considered; ultimately I don't think it fits the fencing fantasy well so I'd rather try to go other routes to get the mobility we like. But we're not opposed to it if other methods fail.
What about if she could use it on allies only while ulting, and could combine it with good timing with Parry to block skillshots intended for other characters? That would give her some team fight utility, and you could add a Voice Over line that plays when she successfully interrupts a spell by dashing to an ally, like "I'm zee one you vant" or "I sought zis vas a duel, not a melee," something snide that tells the opponent she doesn't respect foes that don't see her as the primary threat. Then you could see her jumping around the fight, stabbing people, blocking spells meant for her, and basically knocking projectiles out of the air to protect her allies.

Since it would only be during her ult, it would have limited use as a "hey, thanks for the ride" skill like Lee Sin or Katarina who can use an approaching ally as an escape tool as well as a repositioning tool. If someone wants to blow a massive cooldown for a **** version of Flash, they're welcome to do it, but that would not be the best usage case of the ult.

With the implied crunch for Disengage, that would let her jump to allies, jump to enemies, parry spells meant for her, parry spells meant for allies, jump away from enemies and jump back in after parrying. I think allowing Lunge to target allies during ult would augment the whole "bouncing around" aspect of the current blade waltz while giving it more utility that your allies can feel and is mechanically rewarding.


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Gixia

Senior Member

04-06-2014

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Originally Posted by Critmaster Garen View Post
you can.

it has been explained multiple times, than fioras individual strikes on her ult are channeled. you can break her ult by ccing her with oe cc, like lets say a malphite ult, sona ult, nami bubble, or alistar pulverize. etc.
I know that you CAN, but how many champs actually have that ability? And of those champions, how many of them actually go to lane against Fiora? The majority of the champs who actually have the ability to CC her mid ult are supports who she's not gonna be fighting against in lane. Since the argument is how to stop her from turret-diving you in lane, the option of CCing her with Alistar/Nami/Sona, etc. doesn't really work. Malphite would, but he's the only one off the top of my head.

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you can also play champs like akali or build zonyas on any ap champ. if her target enters stealth, becomes untargetable or invincible (kayle, poppy, tryn) she will execute her ult without dealing damage.
That's not CCing her.

Quote:
you can also just exhaust her, the moment she gets in melee range. you now have enough time to kill her. if she tries to avoid death by ulting you, her ult deals close to no damage.
While exhausting her is very effective and is my go-to method, that's still not something you can do to her during her ult. It's also not something that most tops/mids bring, and the long CD on it makes it so that if she baits it out of you too early then you're utterly boned. Hell, even if you use it properly, the CD on it is still longer than her ult, so she can get you into position to dive you again faster than you'll be able to exhaust her again.


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Unpopulis

Junior Member

04-06-2014

While I currently like Fiora's kit. I hope the rework will make her more dangerous. Least at the most the Lunge ability should be able to target allied minions or champions, to provide her an escape that would fit into Guinsoo's plans for her being able to hit and run, at least for certain for the second free lunge you get to use for the attack.

One of the things I find odd with Fiora is that she's pictured with a Main Gauche dagger along with her rapier but yet, even with Riposte activating I don't really seen it use, that could be used as well.


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Slovakattack

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Heya Guinsoo! If you're still following this thread, I have a few suggestions and things to keep in mind for this rework. (don't feel like you have to respond to this post, just 'absorb and collate' <3)

1. A huge thing for Fiora is making sure that she feels light to play, like a bladeswoman dancing on air. As is the case with any supercharging ultimate, the natural character tends to feel a little heavier without it. It's a tough balance to make the character feel 'light without the ult, and godly with it' as opposed to 'heavy without the ult, light with the ult.'

The reason I bring this up is that, from the ultimate tooltip, it seems like she can't normally parry while moving. While it's an early iteration, that is a dangerous game you play, as ADCs are often just as squishy as they are deadly, and need every once of mobility they can get. If her kit feels overloaded to you in playtesting, I would find another place to stick the cap on her power rather than do it to her mobility.

2. You can use art direction to visualize a lot more power than is actually being given, making the player feel good regarding a numerically inferior ultimate. My suggestion is to transfer over the 'flashes of still images' approach that is used on her current ultimate for use in her new one, applying it to everything she does. Perhaps the thought process could be:

"Fiora has so mastered the art of fencing that her very movements happen faster than the eye can process, forcing her enemies' brains to visually condense an extraordinary amount of movement into a form they can defend against. The result? Fiora's movements appear disjointed- a series of still light images chained together by a deadly phantom. By the time their eyes catch up, Fiora's enemies are already dead."

3. I've seen a lot of discussion on this already in the thread, so I'll make it brief: Yasuo has set a bar for other MADCs (I guess we should just be calling them ADCs now that they're a legitimate class, eh?) to follow, and I personally don't think she can without some kind of steroid. Imo attack speed is the preferred steroid, as it fits with her thematically, and would allow her to focus on flat damage, allowing -you- to give her decent scaling without obscene base damages to her abilities.

Note that she wouldn't necessarily need a steroid if she had some sort of cc to back it up, but that seems unlikely from the tooltip of her kit- although a series of semi-spammable microstuns or crippling srikes tied to a riposte-like ability in a fight would be cool. (can only do vs champion every x seconds of course so as not to be abused.)

Hope this helps!


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KilljoyX

Senior Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
People don't like change. It's in our nature; if we like something we don't want it to change. But that doesn't mean it's not for the better. I'm confident we can deliver a new Fiora kit that delivers most of the same mechanics that the old one has (including the important ones like the Blade Waltz experience) but creates new gameplay and makes her actually feel like a duelist.

I prefer to focus my responses toward posts that are more constructive.
Let me try to explain this in a simple way.

I like apples. Apples taste good to me. Apples aren't popular but only one of 100 stores sells them.
Instead of selling apples everyone switches to Oranges because they are more popular.
Everyone else enjoys the switch since they gain stores they can shop at.
I've now got no where to buy apples.


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Albert Spangler

Member

04-06-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slovakattack View Post
If her kit feels overloaded to you in playtesting, I would find another place to stick the cap on her power rather than do it to her mobility.
I'd like to second this notion!

Having her feel 'light on the feet' is something I'd love to see.


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Starlighte

Senior Member

04-06-2014

One issue I see from the start with this ult is the fact that it can be entirely negated by kiting backwards or a bit of hard CC. The whole reason her live version of Blade Waltz works to some extent is that she is untargetable and will end up where she first targeted *unless they die*. Now, how are you possibly going to incorporate the same amount of "guaranteed damage" that Blade Waltz has in its live iteration, if all Fiora gets to do is spam her current abilities?

And to be frank, your current iteration of Blade Waltz sounds not only boring, but would be something that I would avoid playing a champion because of. Instead of Elise/Lulu/Jayce/Nidalee, where their kit's have 6 and sometimes 7 unique abilities, realistically what you're giving Fiora is 3 unique abilities. It is binary, boring, and easily counterable. The whole reason Fiora is even partially viable/competitive at the moment is because of the untargetability of her ult. If she can get into ult range, and ult, she has guaranteed her team her ultimate's damage. Sure, you could argue that there is no counterplay, and then I would point out that it is the same argument made against Vi's ult. If she goes out of position to use that ult for a pick, your team can collapse and she is done.

Please rethink this ultimate iteration. I do not see any positives for using this iteration as it currently stands. The idea of having only 3 real spells and an ultimate that you can't guarantee some damage on is incredibly lackluster. (Seeing as how her passive is terrible and has no thematic strength, perhaps you can work this ultimate's iteration in to her passive to some lesser degree, and actually give her a REAL 4th spell.)