Rengar Thread of Bolas and Roaring

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ClawsofVengeance

Junior Member

04-05-2014

This new rework of Rengar makes me vomit when I try to play him. I understand that he cannot go back to what he was before, but the changes now don't feel right and I have changes that I think would make him viable in any build and be the fighting tanky fighter like he was envisioned to be, like a predator from the predator series not a sniper bullet.

Ferocity Mechanic- I believe the Ferocity rework is fine, everything scaling off total level seems good to me, I understand other top laners found lvls 1-5 extremely difficult with Rengar having high Q burst or infinite free harass in lane and I believe that the ferocity idea is fine

Q- Ways to make a glass cannon build unfavorable is to reduce the AD ratio and increase base damage. I believe the original 30-150 with only a .8-1 AD ratio would be fine. But you have to bring back the attack speed steroid on regular Q, It doesn't have to be large just 20-40% would be fine and allow it to be used on towers because split pushing is OK in this idea (See Ultimate).

W- Increase base dmg and reduce AP scaling, because AP Rengar is not at all what Rengar is meant to do. Also I would like to see The healing also increase based on enemy champions hit. Before, Rengar could farm under turret and have infinite sustain by spamming empowered W, so they nerfed the healing tremendously when he's not in immediate danger of dying to the point where using it even at 50% health it doesn't heal enough to be useful. I imagine that the heal would be increased the more enemies around him, just like his armor and magic resist. I don't have the numbers but I feel like it would be healthier for him to have more reason to be fighting more champions as a fighter jumping into the teamfight.

E- Fine as is, accomplished what it set out to do, no more free top lane harass but increased damage and root, perfect.

R- Rengar's Ultimate is perhaps his biggest problem when adjusting power level. The way Riot believes the champion to work is as a fighter and that is great but not with a stealth ultimate. What is the point of being stealthy when you want the enemy team to see you, fear you, and fight you? I have 2 ideas to change this ultimate.

1-Remove the stealth and add stats, such as move speed(Towards enemy champ so no split push safety), AD, armor, and magic resist. In this rendition of Rengar it's similar to a Singed ultimate, Rengar get's excited for the kill to come and gets stat boosts to compensate, and with the armor and magic resist people will want to play him tanky to actually use his ultimates mechanics as an initiate to fight, not stealth assassination. The enemy can see him at all times and can react. No ferocity generation for the sake of balancing the increased stats as well as not messing up empowered rotation, because right now when you generate the ferocity after leaping you can't time the ferocity ability that well.

2-Keep stealth mechanic only when running towards enemy champions and generate ferocity during ultimate not after. Same with his movespeed detection, if there's an enemy he's chasing he will be invisible but if he's just running away while split pushing then the ultimate will do nothing. I believe Rengar should be able to take down towers with his Q and atk speed but shouldn't be able to press R and ignore a 5 man gank. I also believe that the enemy shouldn't be warned of him being stealthed because it completely negates the point of the stealth aside from the split pushing safety.

Bonetooth-Is fine as a trinket and gives nice utility, only thing I would change is give it a small bonus with the head of kha'zix, full stacks is nice but with the changes it doesn't equal another evolution point.

And that is my ideas, feel free to comment if you like the idea, what you would change, or just voice you're concern for Rengar because he has a bad rapport, as players of him seem cheesy and obnoxious and I don't want that to be our image. I want Rengar to be a respected pick and I want him to feel right and match his inspiration as being the ultimate hunter. Do not stop talking about this because if you do then Riot will start working on something else because they have A LOT to work with and will move on if the community does not rise up to do something.

Thank you for your time!


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ShadeCrenshaw

Member

04-05-2014

I was so excited when I bought Skarner, then a few weeks later his barely there sustain was removed. And he became ****-tier top lane and even more **** tier jungle.

And now its the kitties turn.
All I can hope is that this guy will leave Nasus, Ahri, Nocturne, Jinx and Thresh Alone.

It seems everything this guy touches goes to ****. I mean, Kha'zix bit the nerf hammer, but he's still fine, he's still viable in his role as a jingler/mid laner/assassin.

Rengar and Skarner are just...

Gonna have to wait for the next rework to these reworks to hope to have fun with them again.

I don't care for the Q tower damage removal, I don't care for the skillshot E, I don't care for the ferocity after ult stealth...

What I care is that a Graves, with equal level and just 30 more AD, but less armor and HP, can out-man you in a fight. WITHOUT ANY KITING.


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Rengar is life

Member

04-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rengar is life View Post
Why is Rengar's splitpushing important? Because Rengar is a champion devoted to all ining. Do you know what happens if you fall behind? You can't all in. Rengar has no secondary goal. All you can do now is jump in again and pray that maybe this time you'll actually win- you won't, but because you have nothing else to do there's no reason not to. It sucks even more because you made him so level-oriented that falling behind the XP curve means you should surrender unless someone on your team is excessively fed.
I feel like I need to keep bringing attention to this until it gets addressed.

Falling behind as Rengar means you are useless and you do not have an outlet- short of getting carried to get back into the game.


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alfavhunter

Senior Member

04-05-2014

Q Base damage removed ad scaling is now

1.2/1.4/1.6/1.8/2.0 (again no base damage this ability damage is based 100% on rengars ad)

aS returned duration is 3 seconds increasing by .5 seconds in duration when AAing a non champion (does not apply bonus AS duration on turrets, but it does effect turrets) up to 5 second duration (this is jungle clear bonus) (does not generate ferocity in turrets but consumes and uses the effect)

FQ no longer gives bonus AS but instead also deals 10% the targets missing hp (ad scaling is 1.2+.1/lvl starting at 1.3 ending at 3.0, so early on this might not deal as much damage based in targets missing hp as normal Q but this keeps his early damage more in line) (execute damage does not effect turrets)

Remove defense bonus and damage (damage moved to Q and E, sorry ap rengar is gone with these changes) on W change it to a short term stealth that gives MS, buff base stats

Exc

Rengar stealthed for 1.25/1.5/1.75/2.0/2.25 seconds gaining 30% MS for the duration, the duration is doubled if if it hits an enemy champion (deals 1 true damage to all enemies to allow for assists with it) if rengar attacks his stealth is removed

FW duration of stealth is 1.5+.1/lvl ending at 3.3 seconds or 6.6 is enemy champion is hit my the aoe

E remains the same but reveals struck target (as long as it isn't stealthed)(allows jumping to jungle camps like golems when they are revealed)

FE unchanged (still reveals)

R thrill of the hunt remade

Rengar gains one stack of unseen predator, 40/50/60% MS for 7/8/9 seconds and all abilities grant double ferocity, rengar can deactivate this ability to refund part of the CD based on remaining duration, this ability still reveals nearby enemy champions for the duration as it does in live

FR (doesn't share CD) consumes all 5 ferocity but let's rengar gain unseen predator and 1+3/lvl % damage reduction for 3 seconds (19 [lvl 6]%-55 [lvl 18]%)


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bossmann1313

Member

04-05-2014

READ! I have TLDR for each section and one for an entire summary at the end.
Alright I understand that many people are upset with the Rengar changes and I can see why. So, I am going to try to summarize everyone's point with my own.

What are you doing with him?
Honestly define his role. Make it one thing. Right now he is outclassed as a bruiser and outclassed as an assassin. The majority of people want him an assassin, so make him an assassin. A funny note is that in game his primary role is defined as an assassin.

Passive - can we change his reveal back to mid leap please? It's not the most important change, but it would be nice.

Moving Power- When you were reworking him you talked quite a bit about moving power. Keep this in mind when you look at the changes you did. Because you took a lot of power away, but barely did anything in compensation.

Q Savergry - Clunky, weird animation bugs you guys know that. Since we are making him an assassin, buff the damage. As for the AS steroid, you guys did not like it because it gave him huge tower killing potential. But, you also removed the q from procing on the tower. So he lost both of his tower killing assets. Let the q proc and either give him bonus damage or attack speed on the tower. This way he can actually push towers in a more balanced manner. Now, as for his savagery on a normal target, let it give larger damage with a smaller attack speed buff. As an assassin you need burst, not sustained damage. But a small attack speed boost helps him in jungle clears, trades, and towers.
Finally for empowered q, buff the damage not the attack speed. Both the normal and the empowered should give the same amount of attack speed. Also give him a 3.5 second window for his q.
Example Numbers
Cooldown 7.5/6.5/6/5.5/5
Normal Q
40/70/200/130/160 (+1.1 AD) (20% attack speed)
Empowered Q
Same base damages (+2.1 AD) (20% attack speed)

Moving Power - You took away burst, split pushing power, attack speed. You gave him a lower cooldown. Overall you nerfed his q hard.

TLDR Overall he should have more damage on his q, a small attack speed buff on both the normal and empowered, and have some sort of procing on the tower.

W Battle Roar - I love what you did with his battle roar … if he was a bruiser. Now getting those buffs might be too much as an assassin, or it could be good. I definitely like the increased armor and magic resist. His heal is ok, it could be a bit better early game.
Moving Power - You took away single target reist and early game heal for better teamfight resists and late game heal. This is actually a good example of moving power, I just think he needs a little bit more love early.

TLDR - His battle roar is the least of your worries, I would leave it as it is now and work on the other parts of his kit that need tuning.

E Bola Strike - I clearly remember when the idea of making it a skill shot was introduced, it was stated that his damage and slow would be buffed to compensate. His damage is almost the exact same on the normal one with a slightly better slow, his empowered has a better damage buff and a better root, but the skillshot overall is difficult to land and not that rewarding when you land it. He normal bola needs to be seriously buffed in order for it to be relevant. It needs better base damage and better scaling. The missile speed also needs to be faster. Before his e was his only reliable harass and now its not reliable nor more rewarding when you land. Now something I would heavily consider is making is e almost like a lee sin q. Rengar lacks mobility compared to other assassins (I’ll talk about this later) Giving him the option to jump to his target after he lands a skillshot e would be amazing. If you were to do this I would only buff the damage on the normal bola slightly and nerf the slows a little. His empowered root duration would also go down.

Example Numbers (if his e was a lee sin q)
Range Decreased to 800
Cooldown 10/9.5/9/8/7.5
Normal E
75/120/165/210/255 (+0.7 Bonus AD)
Slow (30/35/40/45/50%) Decays over time
Ferocity E
Same Base Damages (+0.8 Bonus AD)
Root for .75 seconds

Moving Power - You nerfed his normal e hard, his empored is ok. Give him mobility with his e with damage buffs.

TLDR - Lee sin q mechanics, with a little bit better damages and a lower % slows and smaller root.

R - Thrill of The Hunt - This the probably the biggest change and one of the hardest to get right. The point of Rengar’s ultimate is to get to his target and burst them down. Simple. Before you did not like it because it was used as an easy escape tool, and offered no counterplay against when used offensively. So the change that you do not get an ms boost when moving away from champions is understandable. Now when you chase an enemy they are alerted when you are close to them. I understand the point of this is for counterplay. I also understand why people hate this because he is supposed to be a hunter. The biggest problem goes back to moving power. You said that if you remove or modify the stealth he could get an movement speed and duration boost. The problem is you gave an indicator when he came within range of you(as I a note I like the idea that you only get the indicator when he would normally be in view), but you nerfed his movement speed boost to 15% from 20%/25%/30% and kept the duration the same. This is not a balanced change. Now I can hear an argument of that his bonetooth necklace will take care of this problem. But its a band-aid fix for a gaping wound. First he has to get 12 stacks in order to increase the duration and 20 to increase the movespeed. Also his movespeed will not even increase from the original because by the time you have 20 stacks you will most likely be level 16 or higher. The other arguement is that he gets a huge movement speed buff after he gets to his target. But if you cannot get to your target what the use of that mechanic? Overall his ultimate needs much more movement speed boost as well as a longer duration.
Example Numbers
Cooldown 120/105/70
Duration 10/12/14 seconds
Movement Speed Bonus 30%/35%/40%
Movement Speed Bonus after stealth 15%/20%/25%

Moving Power - You tried to shift the power from before the ultimate to after, but it didn’t quite work out. All he needs is a small boost afterwards to keep up the chase.

TLDR - Increase his movespeed bonus and his duration. Keep the lower initial cooldown.
Only have a warning appear if the enemy would see him otherwise.

Comparison
Let’s compare rengar to two other strong assassin’s, Zed and Kha’zix. Both of them have a mobility and a main damage source spell. Both of them can assassinate a carry and leave the fight. Zed can Split push while kha”zix has better weaving in and out of fights. All we want for rengar is to kill the carry and be able to split push. Were not asking to be able to leave the fight. His w is there for him to stay in afterwards a put little bit more damage and thats it. Rengar’s mobility is actually quite lacking compared to other assassin’s;unless you make the bola strike change, and even then its not close to kha’zixs jump, resets, ultimate. or zed’s shadow mechanics . Therefore its fair to say that all we want you guys to do is take the old Rengar, nerf his split pushing power and stealth mechanics a LITTLE, in exchange for more utility, mobility, and damage.I think with the changes listed above it helps him do that.

SUMMARY TLDR - Take the old Rengar, nerf his split pushing power and stealth mechanics a LITTLE, in exchange for more utility, mobility, and damage.

I apologize for any spelling and grammar mistakes, I did not talk about the ferocity mechanics or the BTN because I believe we need to work on the other thing to decide on those. Thank You.


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WorldOfWoodcraft

Senior Member

04-05-2014

I like the new bola but it helps him more in the jungle than in the lane.
I don't like the Q change, it hurts him in lane.
New W is good.
New R is fine minus the warning at 1000. That's a huge warning. Eve is invisible all the time until she's how close? That's her passive. This is his ultimate.

That means the support can rush to the carry and prep the exhaust. That means the victim can flash to their tower. That means a lot of things can happen.

As one poster said, it could even be so bad as that Rengar is hidden completely in a bush and if he ults now the enemy knows he's there. It's basically firing a warning shot. No other stealth character requires a tell about entering stealth except Shaco, and that smoke has been saving me from ganks for years.It just doesn't make sense.

Q should still damage towers, ESPECIALLY if the initial attack speed from Q is removed. This further encourages a jungle rengar rather than one that lanes.

W and E are fine. E is wonderful. But it's a buff to his jungle not his lane phase. The new ferocity factors actually hit his laning a bit too.

I think if I was a jungler I'd be okay with it


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Troy242621

Senior Member

04-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldOfWoodcraft View Post
I like the new bola but it helps him more in the jungle than in the lane.
I don't like the Q change, it hurts him in lane.
New W is good.
New R is fine minus the warning at 1000. That's a huge warning. Eve is invisible all the time until she's how close? That's her passive. This is his ultimate.

That means the support can rush to the carry and prep the exhaust. That means the victim can flash to their tower. That means a lot of things can happen.

As one poster said, it could even be so bad as that Rengar is hidden completely in a bush and if he ults now the enemy knows he's there. It's basically firing a warning shot. No other stealth character requires a tell about entering stealth except Shaco, and that smoke has been saving me from ganks for years.It just doesn't make sense.

Q should still damage towers, ESPECIALLY if the initial attack speed from Q is removed. This further encourages a jungle rengar rather than one that lanes.

W and E are fine. E is wonderful. But it's a buff to his jungle not his lane phase. The new ferocity factors actually hit his laning a bit too.

I think if I was a jungler I'd be okay with it
I mained jungle Rengar. I'm far from O.K. with it. Not only was his Q damage gutted, he lost the AS speed. Can you guess how his clears are now? Hint, they suck ass >:L.

He doesn't even have a role to fill anymore. Why would I EVER pick him over other junglers?


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Varamor

Junior Member

04-05-2014

Since his rework I have been trying various way to get rengar to work. At first I tried my regular damage jungle build/play style and became sad really really fast. Next I tried a couple beefy ad builds all of which failed. I finally just decided to play him full tank with a BC and did surprisingly alright. Not well mind you. The laning phase was aweful as he is too weak to trade with any of the other beef cakes top. Rengar didnt start feeling usable until the teamfights broke out and I realized it is because that damn W. Holy **** the resistance boosts. I was taking no damage. I am in no way saying I support the new rengar. Trust me, I would definitely love a more damage based stab tabby BUT some of the ideas in new rengar are not bad. If there were a way to find a happy medium then all would be well.

My main complaint, other then personal preferences about his Q and R, is that Riot wanted him to be a fighter lion hunter character but utterly missed that mark. I say this because other bruisers and fighters like jax, vi, dar bear, and just various other beef cakes can still go into a fight, dish out tons of damage, get a kill or two, and live or die soaking up enough damage to allow your team to prevail. New rengar jumps in, becomes super tank but has no damage and just feels like im there in the middle of a crowd roaring and scratching people to annoy them.

I mean, new rengar can work. It just needs to buffs in the damage department and maybe some re imagining in his ult's utility. Its cool to be able to engage with it now almost immediately in a fight but at the same time thats all its used for. It just seems a little lack luster imo. I miss my old kitty cat. I really do. But perhaps there is a way to combine old and new to get a really great champ/kit/playstyle going here.


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DoctorInju

Member

04-05-2014

If you miss with an empowered E, the ferocity is just gone. Could the empowered version at least ignore minions, since it comes at the cost of damage from the empowered Q and flies like it's being dragged through mashed potatoes?


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AccelerationZx

Senior Member

04-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagartru View Post
Both Rengar and Kha'Zix gutted, ashame...my 2 favorite champions in the game in terms of lore and rivalry are both throw up now.

Thanks Riot .
How is Kha'Zix gutted...?