Guinsoo is working on Fiora

First Riot Post
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Xohs

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
You didn't ask any questions, you just listed a bunch of suggestions. I read your post and absorbed it (like all the others in this thread), I just don't think there's a ton of value in replying to specific suggestion posts.
Hate to be off topic, but why have you been so quiet for the last year or so? Lots of people really admire you, and the champions you've created. Even your twitter has been cold, so many people thought you were gone.


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Velotivity

Senior Member

04-04-2014

I really hope either of the following two scenarios will not happen:

1. Fiora becomes ridiculously op, causing eventual nerfs to her demise as a viable champion.
2. Being released extremely buggy and mechanically worse than now.

Coming from a semi-fiora main, i am anxious both positively and negatively for these changes. However, i trust you guys enough to make a good change. Best of luck!


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Ixrawr

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
You didn't ask any questions, you just listed a bunch of suggestions. I read your post and absorbed it (like all the others in this thread), I just don't think there's a ton of value in replying to specific suggestion posts.
Wow, I love you for actually replying to that.

I hope we see more of you around, been a fan since DotA (even the 100% splitshot medusa) <3.


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Reygekan

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Hey Guinsoo, would the new CD on her spells be affected by CDR? In other words, if I have 40% CDR, could I get her spell cooldowns while ulted to like, 0.4 secs instead of 0.75?

Also, what's the reasoning behind moving her out of top lane? I understand that mid is typically better for these kinds of frail champions, but taking a look at her ultimate it gives me a kind of Riven vibe. Do you think she'll be unable to duel a lot of the top lane bruisers with this kind of kit? Or is the current concern that, since top is full of so many unhealthily designed champions, that you'll get a healthier design with the goal of midlane in mind, and that fighter changes over time could shift her into the top lane?


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
Hi guys. I'd just like to weigh in on what some of the Fiora goals are. The main problems we see with Fiora's current kit are that thematically, she doesn't deliver on the fantasy of being a skilled duelist/fencer, and mechanically, her game presence / play pattern / role doesn't line up with being a skilled duelist/fencer. As far as the duelist fantasy goes, at least when I think of Fiora, I expect her to be extremely mobile but not just going in, she needs to be good at dancing in, out of, around and about combat. She should be about finding weaknesses in the opponent's play and finding the proper occasion to go on the attack.
I'm glad we are in agreement here.
Quote:
She shouldn't be about running in and bursting enemies down, she should be poking them down over time.
Must strongly disagree. There is a very good reason why blades were becoming lighter during the Renaissance, its because they become more likely to aim toward a lethal area accurately. The objective was to mortally wound your opponent as efficiently as possible. One strike through the heart, aorta, lung or diaphragm and the fight is over. That is definitely the definition of burst damage and/or critical strike. That said, I do agree that she shouldn't be doing this like a mage and definitely not with AoE. A melee champion that "pokes them down over time" is not using a rapier at all. They would be using a broadsword, club or axe because they don't care what part of the body that they hit.
Admittedly, there is the alternate technique of blooding, where a fencer is not confident of making a finishing move. They cut as many superficial wounds as possible to weaken the opponent and slow them down. This does not translate into LoL at all, unless you are Darius. As to fighting and armored opponent, the fencer would turn to their stiletto. They would avoid the armored and slower opponent's weapon until they could get inside their arcs to apply the stiletto to the joints of the armor. Nothing "poke down" about that.
Quote:
Mechanically speaking, I'd expect a duelist type champion to be mechanically intense. I expect opportunities to use my abilities at optimal times to counter out the enemy's champion. I want to have a lot to keep track of, but with clear success cases when I do well. At the end of the day, live Fiora is a ball of stats with some untargetability thrown in; she pushes her buttons pretty much as fast as she can without a second thought, and she's also extremely snowballey. In short, she's bland with no cool opportunities to exchange gameplay between her and her lane opponent. Some of the current goals including switching Fiora from an assassin to a melee DPS, and moving her lane from top to mid/jungle, and adding tons of 'outplay' functionality on her kit, as well as more mobility especially in terms of being able to disengage and re-engage at optimal times.
I'm back to agreeing with you here.
Quote:
I can't share too much of exactly what the plans are for her kit, as I'm sure it's going to change tons during development, but I'll leave this here to hopefully stir up some excitement for our favorite rapier wielder. Also bear in mind this is an early, experimental Blade Waltz, and could certainly change drastically between now and remake launch time. I also understand it's hard to understand exactly what this sample Blade Waltz does, given the lack of context on her basic spells... but hopefully your imaginations run wild
It's looking like the right direction. I can see the potential.

My suggestions :
A) Fiora's passive feels terrible! Even if it is effective, it feels terrible! My opinion is that she should have some free crit chance or crit damage about the same rate as Nasus's passive. Alternatively, she might convert bonus crit chance into lifesteal by a 1/5 ratio.
B) Riposte should be initially weak. However, every few seconds, she puts a stacking debuff on the closes enemy that she can see. They each last a couple of seconds and wear off one at a time. The more stacks an enemy has, the better the riposte will be against them, consuming the buffs. This is to simulate Fiora's mastery of countering fighting styles. i.e. She studies your moves as you play. This will improve her laning unless the enemy can play cat and mouse in and out of her vision.


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Tortferngatr

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reygekan View Post
Hey Guinsoo, would the new CD on her spells be affected by CDR? In other words, if I have 40% CDR, could I get her spell cooldowns while ulted to like, 0.4 secs instead of 0.75?
*0.45 seconds


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Hostile

Senior Member

04-04-2014

:O!! Couldn't ask for a better person to do Fiora..Guinsoo<3


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Guinsoo

Game Designer

04-04-2014
4 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reygekan View Post
Hey Guinsoo, would the new CD on her spells be affected by CDR? In other words, if I have 40% CDR, could I get her spell cooldowns while ulted to like, 0.4 secs instead of 0.75?

Also, what's the reasoning behind moving her out of top lane? I understand that mid is typically better for these kinds of frail champions, but taking a look at her ultimate it gives me a kind of Riven vibe. Do you think she'll be unable to duel a lot of the top lane bruisers with this kind of kit? Or is the current concern that, since top is full of so many unhealthily designed champions, that you'll get a healthier design with the goal of midlane in mind, and that fighter changes over time could shift her into the top lane?
To be honest I'm not convinced Riven is a perfect top lane example. Right now to me the 'natural' top laners are people like Renekton, Shyvana, etc. I feel like in order to make a melee ADC (ala Yasuo) compete with those types of champions in the top lane, we'd have to make other sacrifices to her core design (e.g. putting life regeneration on her kit, I really don't like her current passive but I worry that without it she'd really struggle top lane).

Quote:
Originally Posted by IonDragonX View Post
Must strongly disagree. There is a very good reason why blades were becoming lighter during the Renaissance, its because they become more likely to aim toward a lethal area accurately. The objective was to mortally wound your opponent as efficiently as possible. One strike through the heart, aorta, lung or diaphragm and the fight is over. That is definitely the definition of burst damage and/or critical strike. That said, I do agree that she shouldn't be doing this like a mage and definitely not with AoE. A melee champion that "pokes them down over time" is not using a rapier at all. They would be using a broadsword, club or axe because they don't care what part of the body that they hit.
Admittedly, there is the alternate technique of blooding, where a fencer is not confident of making a finishing move. They cut as many superficial wounds as possible to weaken the opponent and slow them down. This does not translate into LoL at all, unless you are Darius. As to fighting and armored opponent, the fencer would turn to their stiletto. They would avoid the armored and slower opponent's weapon until they could get inside their arcs to apply the stiletto to the joints of the armor. Nothing "poke down" about that.
OK, I feel like I used the wrong terminology when I said "poke enemies down." I edited my first post to "deal steady, high DPS that is relatively target agnostic." While I mostly agree with you that fencing is all about scoring OHKOs, well obviously that type of gameplay isn't great for any type of PvP game. The way we're choosing to handle this is to give her strong, steady DPS, but have it come in bigger chunks that one might anticipate from a steady DPS champion. For example her Riposte has heavily negative implications on her outgoing DPS... unless she blocks a significant spell or attack, at which point she can respond with a very hard hitting Thrust.

In general we want her to feel good (and be greatly rewarded) for using her abilities properly. While that can't be in the form of OHKOs, I think the next best thing is "big chunks of damage."


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Masterfiends

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Senior Member

04-04-2014

Guinsoo, are you ever going to have the item named after you be any good? Guinsoo's rageblade is sux


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IonCannonKarthus

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Guinsoo, will her Riposte be able to block tower shots while she is ulting? The untargetability was a key feature of her ultimate when it came to tower diving.


It looks good though, I hope it turns out great.