The Gragas Followup Thread

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

RickDodger

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
Summary post of the big flows of feedback I see:

1. I like the character (Yay! putting this on the top because I can)
2. I dislike the balance of his W (He doesn't get enough for how much he gives up, does not give enough tankiness, damage is not enough payback etc.)
3. I dislike the design of his W (He should not be channeling to prime this)

The current plan going forward:

After the patch that fixes the clunkiness bugs,

We will be mainly monitoring his W balance in the short term, as in does it give enough payoff in damage in tankiness, does it last enough for Gragas to do what he needs to do etc.
I think what riot was trying to do was shut down the overabundant tankiness that gragas had going when the W now seems to simply give him good leeway for getting a last minion hit into the laning phase. For jungle, it provides just enough DR to benefit from the happy hour passive. I suggest not trying to use it for extended fights, since this is meant to get in and land a hit before using either barrel roll or bellyflop to get out, or the act of ult, E, then W while they're stunned, and then a hit.

or you can just Q, then W, then E, then hit. the DR only applies poking prevention for 2 seconds after channeling while you CC. The no-cost means you can get CDR and simply use it to spam last hits on minions or against enemies that are weak enough. Sad thing is, the channeling time on it is saying 'you are silenced for one second'. So basically gragas is under self CC for one second until after channeling.

Rumble pulls self silence better when you use his flamethrower before following it up with auto attacks for the duration of the self silence.

Gragas is just walking slower than usual, and it makes the player want to get boots of swiftness and the swiftness merit so you're only losing 13.5% of your movement speed while channeling. I crunched the numbers.

The upside to this is you have good DR for 3 seconds while you channel for 1 second. The channeling is just so you get the ability to deal bonus magic damage with your next auto attack though. That, and the DR makes it so poking you away from farming is pretty hard. This is mitigated while you're in the jungle, as that DR now reduces damage taken from monsters while you're beating up the bigger ones. Having no cost to it, it's a good fallback ability to rely on in a pinch when you're mana starved.

The power behind W's bonus on hit effect has only been tested in bots, but i've seen it deal significant damage to laners who are open for punishment from trying to creep score while you're around. In the lane, it's meant to make the player think twice about going in for killing a minion unless they have ranged attacking like marksmen or some mages and supports.

However, every time I play gragas, his auto attacks stop after killing a minion unit, casting an ability, or even being CC'ed, instead of trying to hit another enemy champion, minion, or monster in range. Most other champions I play as often automatically go to the next minion or monster or champion when auto attacking, and I imagine everyone else would notice the same thing.

In summary, I think the entire thing with his kit is ... pretty solid considering you don't need the DR to initiate rather that you just want the on-hit damage to chain with your other abilities.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Charzin

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
Summary post of the big flows of feedback I see:

1. I like the character (Yay! putting this on the top because I can)
2. I dislike the balance of his W (He doesn't get enough for how much he gives up, does not give enough tankiness, damage is not enough payback etc.)
3. I dislike the design of his W (He should not be channeling to prime this)

The current plan going forward:

After the patch that fixes the clunkiness bugs,

We will be mainly monitoring his W balance in the short term, as in does it give enough payoff in damage in tankiness, does it last enough for Gragas to do what he needs to do etc.
I think the thing you forgot to mention was that people aren't really happy with the new cooldown of Body Slam. If you want Gragas to be a close range caster, he needs a reliable way to get in and/or out of fights. I don't care if the cooldown is doubled if he doesn't hit anything, as long as I could use it more than once every 15s if I'm hitting someone.

The slow on his barrel really isn't enough to catch someone without another form of gap closing, ESPECIALLY when his W drinking slows his own movement speed. Gragas currently cannot engage without telegraphing, and that would be okay if he got some nice mobility to get on to people.

Think of Yasuo. If he's used two Q's and has his tornado primed, you KNOW he's looking for an engagement. The problem is that the window on Gragas' W is so short, he HAS to drink and engage right away for a chance to use it. The fact that he A: shows his hand and B: slows himself while doing so are what's currently making him have terrible kill potential.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

RickDodger

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charzin View Post
I think the thing you forgot to mention was that people aren't really happy with the new cooldown of Body Slam. If you want Gragas to be a close range caster, he needs a reliable way to get in and/or out of fights. I don't care if the cooldown is doubled if he doesn't hit anything, as long as I could use it more than once every 15s if I'm hitting someone.

The slow on his barrel really isn't enough to catch someone without another form of gap closing, ESPECIALLY when his W drinking slows his own movement speed. Gragas currently cannot engage without telegraphing, and that would be okay if he got some nice mobility to get on to people.

Think of Yasuo. If he's used two Q's and has his tornado primed, you KNOW he's looking for an engagement. The problem is that the window on Gragas' W is so short, he HAS to drink and engage right away for a chance to use it. The fact that he A: shows his hand and B: slows himself while doing so are what's currently making him have terrible kill potential.
Sona telegraphs her engages with W but you at least have the option of activating it in mid zenith blade dash...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

NotBuzzJack

Senior Member

04-04-2014

I think W is going to need some better rank one values, because you're likely going to max it last in favor of Body Slam's high base damage. And in general flat damage reduction is difficult to appreciate if it isn't really significant, like Alistar's ult. I'm thinking a shield, while not as thematically fitting, would provide better gameplay.

And while you're here, the Viktor rework is still a thing yes?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xohs

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
Really wanted to point that out and to encourage you guys who have been engaging in productive discussion (you should know who you are) to continue doing so in this and other threads.
The fact of the matter is, the rework scared off a lot off the people who played Gragas for his power, so now you kinda have his dedicated fan-base here, which has shrunk greatly from the former fact.

I would love to downpour the negativity of the Rengar/Skarner threads, but I'm one man, and I don't even play Rengar.


On a less friendlier note, is there gonna be any address on Gragas's identity in peril, or are we just gonna ignore that?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

atomicguppy

Junior Member

04-04-2014

I was always a little bummed that Gragas, "The Rabble-Rouser" didn't rouse much rabble. It felt a little weird that this huge drunk guy wanted to sit in the back and snipe people with precision skillshots. Overall, I am very happy with this rework. It seems to almost capture the feel of a drunken brawler.

The biggest issue is definitely how the W works. He wants to get into melee range to proc the onhit, but once he does then he just kind of... sits there. I really like that it is a channel that he can move while performing, that feels like a very "drunken brawler" thing to do and gives Gragas a pretty unique feel.

Maybe if you increased the cooldown by a touch but put the skill on cooldown when he starts the channel rather after he uses the buff? That way it doesn't feel like he is just sitting in melee waiting on cooldowns.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Solcrushed

Live Balance Designer

04-04-2014
11 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xohs View Post
The fact of the matter is, the rework scared off a lot off the people who played Gragas for his power, so now you kinda have his dedicated fan-base here, which has shrunk greatly from the former fact.

I would love to downpour the negativity of the Rengar/Skarner threads, but I'm one man, and I don't even play Rengar.


On a less friendlier note, is there gonna be any address on Gragas's identity in peril, or are we just gonna ignore that?
I feel that the identity was set out already - a brawler that is supposed to mix it up in close range and not just from afar.

If his current tuning does not allows him to do this then we will fix it. Simple as that.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

RickDodger

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicguppy View Post
I was always a little bummed that Gragas, "The Rabble-Rouser" didn't rouse much rabble. It felt a little weird that this huge drunk guy wanted to sit in the back and snipe people with precision skillshots. Overall, I am very happy with this rework. It seems to almost capture the feel of a drunken brawler.

The biggest issue is definitely how the W works. He wants to get into melee range to proc the onhit, but once he does then he just kind of... sits there. I really like that it is a channel that he can move while performing, that feels like a very "drunken brawler" thing to do and gives Gragas a pretty unique feel.

Maybe if you increased the cooldown by a touch but put the skill on cooldown when he starts the channel rather after he uses the buff? That way it doesn't feel like he is just sitting in melee waiting on cooldowns.
If one did that then it would make it pointless to build a lich bane or iceborn gauntlet on him. Lich bane can mitigate his mobility issue since it grants a good mobility buff to begin with, as well as more damage when you use your on-hit effect to make a seriously heavy casket falling on the enemy in one smack.

then we have iceborn gauntlet. It's more a means of using a cold brew rather than a hot one. This makes his casket on-hit animation feel like you're splashing cold beer on enemies around him with one swing. This also makes good work for helping clear out minion waves when not relying on barrel roll or Body slam.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xyltin

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Gragas support seems pretty legit. I expect to see a good deal of it in our future.
His base dmg is good, he has some poke and zone potential, a dmg reduction and a gap closer. Some CC and his still strong ult.

I can definitely see this working, but I don't find the right support item for him.
Coin gives the reg stats, what is probably the best choice for him.
Shield has no mana reg, what means you need to be really careful with your mana or you need runes to compensate.
Dagger makes him too squishy, but a great amount of all in burst and CC at lvl 3.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xohs

Senior Member

04-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
I feel that the identity was set out already - a brawler that is supposed to mix it up in close range and not just from afar.

If his current tuning does not allows him to do this then we will fix it. Simple as that.
That's more of a theme. Gragas doesn't have a identity. Is he a long ranged mage? A magical tank? CC heavy utility mage? He kinda just picks from every tree, but doesn't seem to do anything well.