So what happens to some of us who only played rango as a glass cannon assassin..
I gave him a few tries in the jungle he's alright there but his clear time got nerfed.. and the ganks are more obvious after 6 and gives time to react
tried him at top built him like jax with 1-2 damage items and then some tank items
didn't do enough damage and died to fast
q doesn't work on towers either so split pushing is also out of the question
and I don't see assassin rengar working considering you only get ferocity after you leave stealth.
I don't even want to post my opinion here. This wasn't even changed from when he was released on PBE, I complained about how it ruins Rengar's identity entirely and makes him unfun to play, nothing was changed, absolutely. I feel like there is no point in giving feedback since we've already seen what happened with Skarner - more range on E, 10% more slow, call it a day and that's it. I literally do not expect any sort of fixes to make Rengar decent.
Okay, okay, fine, Maybe I will repeat the feedback that has been given so many times while Rengar was on PBE and it did nothing.
Bugfixes? More like no bug testing. Q doesn't do anything when used while leaping? Isn't that, like, 90% of what you'll cast while leaping? idk. Moving on.
I want to address the 'buffs' Rengar got and how they're not even effective at fixing anything. People will look at W's scaling with enemy champion hit and go ''woah rengar is so tanky''. This is an illusion. Rengar does not often become or easily remain this tanky. Riot, you have access to all sorts of Data. Xin Zhao already exists with a mechanic where hitting more than 1 enemy champ with an AoE move grants more defenses. Can you please look at said data and tell us how often xin zhao gets the defensive bonuses from his ult for more than 2 targets hit and how this makes him tanky? The same should go for rengar since their approach is the same - get in, burst with this ability, and try to focus on a single target. This would tell you that, given how swingy Roar is, saying that it has high potential would mean nothing in reality since statistically rengar wouldn't hit more than 2 champions on average. In which case the bonuses barely beat out those of release Rengar.
Making bola into a skillshot was probably the only good thing of this rework, and is a major buff to Rengar....if he jungles. In lane, Rengar lost a guaranteed source of poke. I mean, don't get me wrong, but resourceless targeted poke is pretty dumb as an ability. We learned that much from URF mode. But rengar's E doesn't even have a low cooldown. Sure, you had guaranteed damage, but it wasn't remotely close to spammable. Now? 10 seconds. Really decent. You still probably get one off at most in those assassination attempts. Except it's now a linear skillshow. Awkward. Can't easily use it in lane since most of the time minions will block them. It's not like you can fish for hits like with Mundo's Cleavers. You'll probably end up using it to farm minions and generate ferocity, unlike before where you just mashed E with smartcast on while you mouseover the enemy and you'd get free poke as soon as they got into cast range. Still, if there are no minions and this spell is 1000 range, going into lane from the jungle makes it so much easier to gank someone. 1100 range at first was a really good length but you chose to lower it for some reason. Maybe ganks were getting too easy since CC was easily applicable?
Regular Q got the short end of the stick. I'm not sure how to put it...There are champs with autoattack enhancers. Let's look at Trundle for example. He has an easy time resetting with Q since he attacks, then you press Q after he hits something with the club and he IMMEDIATELY lunges forward and bites. It could be a moving target, it could be stationary. Point is, he does it regardless of attack speed. Rengar used to do this before, but I believe it was entirely because pressing Q gave him an Attack speed boost on said attack and for several seconds afterwards, so he felt really similar to Trundle. Now, this attack speed boost is gone. Rengar's Q is unreasonably slowed down and does not allow you to use it as an AA reset. Please give it whatever functionality Trundle Q has - +range on Q cast, +AS just for that that attack, a 0.5s 70% slow on attacked target with Q, I don't care. Given the huge AS loss on rengar, thus crippling his regular sustained fighting abilities while attacking a fleeing enemy, having Q be as clunky as this (what others say) is just something that cannot be allowed.
-tl;dr Rengar Q can't AA reset easily, Rengar's W doesn't actually make him as Tanky as you'd expect and E is no longer free harass but becomes Rengar's best ability instead.
I think that's going over Rengar's 3 basic abilities, not empowered versions. Let's have a look at his passive and BTN now.
The passive remains unchanged. Rengar leaps from bush and stealth. Got it. Still the same, still good, still fun. Wait what do you mean BTN's 6 trophy bonus is +125 range on leap from +150? I do not understand the reasons behind this change--oh wait yes I believe I do. Let's look at what BTN received - the ability to not lose trophies on death! And you can start with it! And it functions just like whichever trinket you picked! ...In fact, if Rengar starts with it 100% of the time and it's cool, why the hell did you not just...make it his passive!? Come on, let's be honest. Rengar's passive is currently that he leaps on targets from bushes&stealth, as well as his abilities using ferocity. If you are going to make the change so rengar has BNT 100% of the time, you might as well just shove it into his passive.
Let me explain myself a little bit better here. Trinkets have, essentially, 3 levels. It upgrades once at level 9 and once after you pay 475 gold. However, for Rengar, this is not true. It automatically upgrades at 6 and 12 trophies. However, given past BTN functionality, this trinket would lose its upgrades if said trophies were lost. It's bad design if everyone else had their trinket functionality on demand with only Rengar's being dependent on Trophies, making it possible to lose your upgrade. On one hand, this is understandable from a designer's viewpoint. On the other hand, choosing BTN over regular trinkets makes it a Risk-vs-reward thing, which further makes Rengar binary in the sense of him gaining usefulness if enough kills and being behind if not enough. But there are plenty more solutions to that outside of making trophies permanent and impossible to lose.
One option is just keeping standard trinket upgrade patterns, but that risks making it too text-overloaded. The other is, dun dun dun, making BTN into Rengar's passive. It's not like there isn't plenty of space there. Hear me out - Bonetooth Necklace is something unique to Rengar. It is not mentioned in his lore or his abilities or anything. It just exists as his own personal binary trophy-scaling item. I want this to be tied to him closer. What better than to make it his passive? It becomes closer to the character, and you still have to Balance Rengar with BTN's existence in mind. That leaves the trinket slot open back to whatever you want to pick, without the burden of BTN in there.
But let's jump back to why Rengar lost some bonuses on BTN, like that leap range. You see, BTN no longer competes for item slots. That frees you up to purchase whatever you want and still keep BTN's functionality. Therefore, bonuses like AD and CDR and APen do not need to exist on BTN. What BTN does get to keep is utility. The 25 MS? No longer necessary, let's just give him a low Boots of Mobility +25 out of combat, but also in bushes, so it's sort of like Nidalee. The Leap Range is too long for something this easy to obtain, so we lower it. And then the higher end rewards are an effective DOUBLING of Rengar's stealth duration, as well as higher movement speed during ult. Wait. Rengar already gets MS out of combat, aka when he's using his ult. Also, boot upgrades like Alacrity for +20 exist. Furthermore, Boots of Mobility exist, and are common purchases on early game assassin junglers (like Rengar whose BTN is fueled by kills and assists). He's getting an overload of MS that he can't effectively use due to the soft cap of MS at 420 where total MS is multiplied by 80%. He's not really gaining all of that MS from ulting, or other purchases. Probably not something you want on his max stack reward.
-tl;dr BTN shouldn't have to be forced into trinket slot because that causes even more of a power imbalance when trying to balance the power of BTN since you have to work around Trinket's effects. Also, BTN not being an item frees up an item slot for Rengar and now you have to balance 6 item Rengar with guaranteed BTN instead of 6 item rengar OR 5 item rengar with BTN. ALSO ALSO BTN bonuses at different stacks need to be re-evaluated due to them being 100% Guaranteed Power in rengar's kit since Trophies aren't lost on death.
That leaves Ult and Empowered abilities.
Oh...Rengar ultimate....you are probably the best and the worst skill all at once. Let's look at what it previously did. Rengar's ultimate was used for two things - Ult, get ferocity and then jump out of nowhere and assassinate a poor squishy with Rengar's insane burst AD ratios. Or you splitpush with Rengar's actually decent tower taking ability, and then ult so you get mobility and stealth to evade possible engagement from the enemy, as well as gaining free detection should the area be unwarded. Of course, both of these are sufficiently unfun. But Riot found workarounds. In the first case, Rengar gets revealed at different points during his leap. Player solution? Just don't leap from stealth, walk up to them AND BURST THEM. How about making it so Ult generates ferocity after you come out of stealth? Well good job, I say. Rengar can no longer burst. He can also no longer assassinate anyone. This is of course, exaggeration. Rengar's ultimate now gives him MS after ulting so he should be able to stick to someone. Of course, CCing Rengar actually works now, since he can't retaliate. The only way he can respond to a slow or a CC where the enemy flees, is it Rengar's Bola magically got Empowered by the 5 ferocity that takes a total of /5/ seconds to generate. Then he has to land a fast 1000 range skillshot and the 1.75s Snare + Ult MS are plenty for him to catch up. I actually like this pattern, but I do believe that Rengar generates Ferocity far too slow for him to do anything with his ult.
Before, you started at 5 ferocity with a free empowered ability, then used it and generated 3 more with your 3 ability uses. That left Rengar with 3 ferocity and waiting on CDs to pop 2 more. After the ult change, Rengar starts from 0 to 5 ferocity,, which is really swingy and depends on preparation, then rengar gains 3 so he may-or-may-not use an empowered ability, leaving him from 0 to 3 ferocity at most. However, he now gains 5 periodically, so after 2 seconds in, Rengar can have from 2 to 5 ferocity! That's enough to use /another/ empowered ability. This is huge! Net positive much? Rengar can now engage and frontload his lowered burst over 2 seconds then gain enough points for another empowered ability after 2-5 seconds. This can't even compare to before. His pre-remake abilities were on 6,11 and 8s CDs respectively. Even with CDR, you can't get close to what this new ult offers you.
Of course, this ult cannot remain balanced for what it offers. You would think that making it so rengar cannot assassinate and 100-0 squishies from stealth while giving him post-ult strength would be an equal trade, well you are wrong. As of right now, Rengar roars while ulting, thus warning enemies at a long range extremely loudly that HELLO I AM RENGAR AND IM GOING TO BE STEALTHED. This isn't comparable to Nocturne, whose voice is heard globally /and/ he shrouds the whole map. Probably the way to make this ability less obvious is to make the roar global, although I'm not sure you'd even want to have a roar happen, given how Rengar is revealed from stealth mid-leap.
The stealth fade time from 1.25s to 3s is what Rengar needed to stop his safe splitpushing. He's caught much easier and has to use it properly if he wants to escape. If you want to punish him even more, keep the long cooldown from before. But making this ability far too full of counterplay by warning enemies constantly of Rengar's location as well as changing him so he has no burst threat? That may be a bit too much.
-tl;dr Ult has less toxic interaction by giving Ferocity after coming out of stealth but the reveals are probably too much.
Now, empowered abilities. Where do I start?
How about entirely? Okay, so Rengar's empowered abilities now scale with his level meaning any one of them is equally strong as the others, no matter what Rengar's levelling first - Q, W or E. This, sadly, means that Rengar just gets mediocre since none of his empowered abilities actually excel. As in, you don't get an excellent empowered Q because of your investment of 3 Q points at level 6, but you also don't get really poor empowered W because you only have 1 point in W. This change, while good, has had an effect on Rengar's double-tapping action while laning. Double Q for burst damage as well as a fantastic AS steroid to let you continue trading? Gone. Double W for insane waveclear with AP investment? Gone. Double E for I don't know why would you do this there's no point?!?? Also gone.
Empowered Q....oh this ability is just great. It's pretty much old empowered Q with less damage, less AS, and you also get +10% AD for a bit while it lasts. This ability is a trap. Given the nerfs to base Q, Rengar doesn't want to actually trade without having access to empowered Q because that is the only way to get your Attack speed back to allow you to win trades. You also get some sort of free AD for several seconds that really helps your autoattacks and E (since it scales with AD). There is just no choice here. You either have access to empQ and you can trade, or you don't have access to empQ and you can't trade. It makes Rengar even more binary because of this. Before, you could fight with Q's base damage and free AS afterwards, using empQ if you wanted to increase said damage and AS to make you win trades harder. Now, you just don't fight because regular Q is too weak for that, so you must wait out on empQ. A poor choice.
Empowered W got the heal gutted, but you can't really say you didn't expect that. A free flat heal on a resource-less ability? That shouldn't exist in the first place. But it really hurt Rengar's sustainability. Given how his base regen also got gutted, and he is not Riven (who can just shield off damage in trades) then I don't understand why it had to be made for Rengar's heal to not only be flat, scale off champion level, be empowered W only, but also then be halved and allowed it to increase based on Rengar's missing hp? This isn't even a choice for which empowered ability you want to use due to the fact it does almost nothing for Rengar with the amount of nerfs it has received.
Empowered E is probably the best of the bunch. It's the base bola, except tripled so it now snares for 1.75s on hit, on top of the 2.5s slow. I can't really say much other than 'this is a great ability except I need to use Rengar's empowered Q to fight 1v1 so I would never use this outside of helping my team by snaring a key target'
-tl;dr EmpQ is necessary for trades (shouldnt be), EmpW got gutted, EmpE is useful but you want EmpQ so you never use it.
Now then, after looking at all of this, we can see that the changes entirely destroy Rengar's burst assassination, remove his ability to have sustained trades in lane, remove his tower-fighting power, nerf his splitpushing escapes by removing MS during stealth, remove his sudden appearance from ulting by both warning champion that he stealths as well as revealing him early, remove his binary curve where empowered abilities are useless without points in the regular ones, remove his lane sustain from empW's heal BUT on the positive side, they also remove his 5-slot issues with BTN, make his jungle ganks better with the E changes, give him a guaranteed BTN that will never lose stacks, and give him free 10% AD during empowered Q, as well as 1s longer and possibly stronger defenses when using W.
This is what pisses players off because they can no longer burst assassinate, which was bad, but they can't really do any sort of assassination as it is. This makes Rengar worse than most assassins you would choose. Furthermore, laning with Rengar is significantly weaker because without access to his level 2 cheese OR any sort of AS in Q, the cat cannot effectively trade with the most picked top laners. Moreover, he cannot even best them as pushing down turrets since his strength in that was entirely gutted, thus removing any sort of fall-back mechanism for Rengar to use in case he loses lane and has to make up for it by helping his team. His participation in kills is not rewarded with anything but utility which he cannot exercise properly since what that utility works on (aka splitpushing or surprise ganks) was significantly altered to make it nigh-impossible.
It's probably too late for proposing changes, but here I go anyway.
1) Give Q back the tower-hitting functionality as well as giving base Q back it's AS boost. To prevent the previous burst assassin, turn the extra physical damage into a bleed like Talon Q. This way, Rengar cannot instantly jump and assassinate someone, but his damage over 5 seconds is better because he can still keep on attacking with an AS boost after the initial hit. You can even make it so attacking a Bleeding target either refreshes or amplifies the Bleed. It would fit with Rengar thematically because cats lacerate and make you bleed. This bleed damage would not apply to towers, which would allow him to use Q on towers for Ferocity and AS, but not by causing free extra damage to the tower.
2) If Q becomes a bleed, keep Empowered Q's burst, since Rengar would need some sort of way to hit hard outside of sustained autos and bleed. Move the 10% AD away and give him something to promote fighting, like Grievous Wounds. That way Rengar can choose to make his Bleed stick via reduced regen from EmpQ's hit
3) Give the 10% AD to EmpW. Rengar already goes ham with this defensive ability, so if he chooses to heal because he is low on HP (Heal boosted by % missing HP), he probably would want to hit back hard as well, so the 10% AD would amplify his lifesteal-boosted autoattacks (because who doesn't buy lifesteal on Rengar? Even Machete gives life on hit) Maybe even make it so Rengar's empW is like Olaf's W, empowered healing effects on Rengar for X seconds after empowered W, making his lifesteal/on-hit more potent.
4) Probably nerf Bola's slow. Rengar may or may not get far too sticky. An 80% slow for 2.5s is goodness gracious, way too scary. Also possibly Rooting? Even scarier.
5) Speaking of the Bola, it's kind of slow for a 1000 range skillshot. Missing an empowered bola punishes Rengar really hard since he uses up all 5 ferocity stacks for it. Can it gain Elise's Cocoon's buff and also give vision while flying and during the 2.5s it slows an enemy? Either/or, or maybe even both.
6) Already mentioned in the BTN section, but make BTN into Rengar's passive and change how the stack system works. I'm sure people would prefer better bonuses there, at the cost of being able to lose stacks.
That's my feed back I guess. It probably won't go in since Rengar is already changed on live, but I can at least try.
So, thoughts as a Rengar player. I mostly play Dominion but ahve tried him out on SR too. I also rageposted when the rework went up, sorry about that :x My opinion is a bit more nuanced right now. Here are my thoughts:
His damage is fine, you guys just need to do something about his ultimate. The whole reason to play Rengar was because he could ult past wards and get a solid gank in. Right now you're better off not ulting at all when you gank 'cause they just get alerted and walk away. Which is just all the way messed up and why nobody can pretend like he's a hunter anymore.
What successful hunter cat do you know yells and screams alerting everyone within a five mile radius know of his/her presence before he/she pounces on his prey?
If you really don't want him to do too much burst damage out of stealth make him get a certain amounts of spells and abilities before he can use some burst damage. Something like volibear but with however many aa and spells you think it takes for Rengar to earn a kill and also have it not be an execute. That way you can mess with the number of hits and the amount of burst until you get the right combo.
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