The Gragas Followup Thread

First Riot Post
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Solcrushed

Live Balance Designer

04-03-2014
4 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nahff Bengarr View Post
I don't see any reason why the mana restore was removed from his W--that was literally THE first and foremost use of it.

Could you please explain this change?
We felt the mana restore was an unnecessary part of the kit that would be awkward to carry over with the new W cooldown.

Also His mana costs were reduced quite a bit to reflect that he no longer has W mana restore and he will be building less mana items. Maybe they are not enough, we will see.


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GnomeDigest

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Senior Member

04-03-2014

There is some sort of bug that stops him from autoattacking. He will literally just stand there while things beat on him. I notice it the most after using his W. Its most annoying when I jungle him, move the camera away to go check out whats going on, and return to find him just standing there doing nothing while the jungle camp beats on him.

The duration on his on hit buff from W is way to short. Even adding one second doesn't seem like enough because it is especially problematic due to the fact that you basically telegraph to your opponent that you might go aggressive as soon as you W. And since you are moving slower while you channel it makes it very easy for them to just avoid you for 2 seconds by simply walking away.

Even if you E into them and then channel to use the stun to buy you time you still basically give up damage because you could be autoattacking during that time instead. The stun is also so short that they could still use a movement ability to get away before you get off the W empowered auto. Basically either way you lose by trying to use your ability. Seems unfair. Trying to channel and then E is even harder to get use out of because of how telegraphed your aggression is by the use of W. Using W in fights that are not extended teamfights is super awkward.

He seems to do ok in the jungle because his barrel charging up is actually useful and he has more CC for ganks now but its hard to see how he could still be a mid laner. Seems like he lost that flexibility. One the plus side its at least possible to use him as a support but I still dont have enough games with him as support to know if its truly viable vs a lot of other supports or into late game. I know people seem to think he can be a top lane bruiser but I just dont buy it vs the current main 4-5 champs that get played there. The itemization paths for AP bruisers always seem to leave them short on damage or tankyness, while AD bruisers seem to have much easier paths to getting both with similar gold because they dont have to buy AD the same way AP bruisers need to spend gold on AP.

I thought the loss of his mana regen from the W would be really bad but the reduced mana costs seem to have compensated well for that. I havent had any real issues there.

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
I would think once the issue with the Autoattack after E is fixed, E would more or less guarantee a W anyway.
Pls explain this. I have found it anything but guaranteed to get use out of the empowered auto. Are you saying you channeled the W before the E and your enemy just stayed nearby while you did it and let you E them?


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BlargCow

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Senior Member

04-03-2014

why can't he use abilities during body slam anymore?


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Cosmic Warper

Junior Member

04-03-2014

I'm happy with the rework. It put him in a good spot in terms of brawling with magic damage. The only problems that i encountered while playing the new gragas is that his E hitbox is larger than the marker indicates, making gragas hit minions even though they are not directly in front of gragas himself (to his immediate side). Is there any way this can be fixed? Or was that intended? On top of that his base movement speed seems really low for that of an ap fighter/bruiser. Why the movement speed change if he's going to be in the fight up close more often?


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HandheldBrandon

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Im really liking the rework however the channel on W really takes me out of combat. It feels like i have to ask my enemy to give me a sec while i charge this up. Also i like the Idea of W applying the proc on people hit by body slam thats interesting. I prefer tanky jungler gragas and right now he has that feel but several pieces feel off.

I also feel like his Q is not going off all the time i have been right next to people and attempt to throw out a Q but nothing will happen until i use another skill. Its hard to repeat but it seems to happen often. An idea i like would instead of making his W an auto attack make it like an AOE Belch that does sort of the same thing except with less damage and a lower cooldown.

Also body slam cooldown without CDR just feels plain awful.


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Xohs

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
We felt the mana restore was an unnecessary part of the kit that would be awkward to carry over with the new W cooldown.

Also His mana costs were reduced quite a bit to reflect that he no longer has W mana restore and he will be building less mana items. Maybe they are not enough, we will see.
Coming from a previous Jungle Gragas main: I don't really plan to play him anymore. This isn't a bad thing, I just figured I'd let you understand why I would say this.

Overall, I enjoyed Gragas as a long ranged Mage damage dealer. Obviously that identity changed, but now he's stuck in a limbo. The way his ratios are made, you guys want a lot of his damage to be done close range, but due to the W nerfs and the usual Gragas builds, this isn't possible without blowing up. He has the CC of a tank, and honestly, that may be where he's heading, but that's not why the players played him, and his kit kinda contradicts the tanking role. You have his bread and butter skill tailored for a Mage, and then you just kinda have all these tank elements.

So here's what I'll say in general.

- W feels like it shouldn't even be a skill, the damage reduction feels like worthless hidden power, and it makes you really wonder what the spell should be used for. The actual damage and ratio as far as I'm concerned are pretty meaningless, considering that the damage is minimal, you have to be close range to use it, and it's what took the power out of Q and R for his power budget.

- If you guys want him to be a close range Mage I would tell you to reduce the range on his Q and give him some durability in return. I tried to play him as I did before, and I simply didn't do significant damage late game. Given, I have plenty of utility, but none of that really matters if I can't get close enough to use it.

- I'm not convinced that W is a worthwhile effort to tune. Even if you made a very synergistic change such as E applying W to all targets hit, it still would feel very strange. It feels like a on hit auto reset without the benefits of being a on hit auto reset.

- Mana feels fine, early damage is passable. Mid game is ok. Late game is horrid. Q change (longer the duration, the more damage it does) makes jungle clears a breeze, but isn't practical in any other situation.

Strengthen one of his roles, Gragas is stuck in limbo.


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Hoodimin

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Basically, the rework is absolute garbage.

1. Literally nobody is going to wait around for 30 seconds for his Q to power up and get hit by a full damage Q. You're not going to stun anyone inside of it, either, so don't even go there.

2. All aspects of his W are awful: you spend a second channeling so your next autoattack powers up, but when the enemy sees you channeling, they're just going to walk away, and since the empowered W only lasts a second or two, you're never going to hit anyone with it, especially during lane.

Then there's the fact that you guys want him to be a brawler with autoattacks, but his damage mitigation is a lot worse and shorter duration now, so that's confusing, too.

3. His body slam is the only decent aspect of his new setup, but since all of his other abilities are garbage now, I don't want to use it for anything but running away.

4. Thanks for not ruining his ult like you ruined his other 3 abilities, I guess.

Overall, was this even necessary? Was it really impossible to balance him by tweaking his numbers? Did you really have to, at complete random, completely change the gameplay style of a champion that's played the same way since he was created? Why? I can't wait for you guys to remake Sion into an AD carry or something like that, next.


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Xohs

Senior Member

04-03-2014

I stopped playing him simply because my preferred role is no longer supported. I'm completely fine with this, however, I still love Gragas as a character and it makes me pretty bummed that I don't enjoy playing him anymore. I would like to see you guys either strengthen his close range Mage persona, or beef up his tanky demeanor (or perhaps cut the W and make him a mobile long ranged brewmaster againmaybepls?), but right now Gragas is pretty awkward to play.


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Best Shyvana AU

Member

04-03-2014

So, Solcrushed, about that Viktor rework that we never got..


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theZerbs

Senior Member

04-03-2014

not happy with the recent changes
the W change is fine but the slow during the channel and the fact it takes 1 sec to channel irritates me
not to mention his base MS is ridiculous
the most frustrating change is to the splash damage on his E.
that made clearing waves easy even without the Q
add splash damage (not splash stun though) and increase his MS a bit, I'd be content.

I like the direction you guys are going with but he feels incredibly underpowered at the moment and I see no reason to really pick him other than nostalgia for how awesome he was.