Rengar Thread of Bolas and Roaring

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Riot Pwyff

Player Communications

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04-03-2014
6 of 21 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoWafflez View Post
Engaging into a back line that gets alerted front eh front line from seeing a warning also he lost his as that was more then enough plenty of things can q towers
He gets bonus movespeed in stealth, a leap out of stealth and a speed boost once he breaks stealth. All of these things speak to Rengar needing to be at least slightly crafty in approaching his engages rather than push R, right click squishy and blow them up.

[EDIT] Gonna get some food. I get this thread is super passionate but let's assume a discussion is going to be had.

This doesn't mean everything you demand will happen, but it does mean that your concerns or pains will be heard and either should be solved by a different play approach, are actual strategic tradeoffs and design health implementations, or are genuine pain points that should be addressed by design.


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The MechE

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy57 View Post
That is impressive denial.

You are a failure at your position in the company. You have proven this twice.

You are completely unable to accept criticism, even when you are clearly at fault and have made terrible decisions. Anyone competent would move you to a different department or just let you go from the company.

A player-centered response to this would be more like,

'Guys, I messed this one up. We tested it out extensively and our teams (and PBE players) thought it was ok (even though this was a complete lie and PBE players told you it was ****).'

I'm assuming Lyte is telling you how to handle this and auditing your posts somewhat, so you're receiving advice from someone whose business it is to lie and make it sound come across as empathetic.

Any intelligent person sees through this.
Except they did what they needed to do. Rengar was toxic as ****, and it's difficult as hell to preserve what makes Rengar Rengar because what makes Rengar Rengar is that he's toxic as **** to play against.

You need to accept that your toxic champion was bad for the game and get over yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2LpTxW2OEo


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FFS All is OP

Senior Member

04-03-2014

I don't play reptar. I don't really often play against a reptar that I think "what will we do about this beast?!?!?!" So my contribution to this thread will be minimal.

Please rework Nid or Lee Sin next. Thanks.


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Fynal Hour

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Goodness the amount of hate for a Rioter.

Ashamed of this community.


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inplane

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy57 View Post
Because all of the changes were incompetently done.

Constructive criticism is given in the hope that one accepts and attempts to modify behavior or situations with respect to the criticism. This also assumes a situation is fixable.

This one is not - the rengar rework was an inept change of a champion and, if the skarner rework is your benchmark, nothing will come of constructive criticism aside from one-two minor tweaks that will offer no usability improvements.

Asking for constructive criticism after you just base jumped for your first time is silly - you ask before you try it.

Aside-
The community saw what happened with Skarner - they will no longer take riot's word anymore. This is called credibility - Riot has lost its'
Riot has to stop talking politely and let it out.
Admit it and we'll all be happy... for a second.


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Viral Nightmare

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynal Hour View Post
Goodness the amount of hate for a Rioter.

Ashamed of this community.
Are you implying it's unjustified hate? Because it's sure as hell justified.


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MoonsBane

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Senior Member

04-03-2014

Let's start with his ult. Picture this. You're sitting in a bush. The enemy ADC is just outside your leap range. The adc cannot see you. If you use your ult they'll know you're there and they'll run. Why, for the love of god, are enemies alerted when they could not see you anyways? If you're in the Fog of War they cannot see you. Ulting pretty much removes the Fog of War and bushes. Sure, they don't know where you are but they know you're close enough to be jumped on which completely negates the reason to have stealth. If you are stealthed the enemies should not be able to see you. Ulting as rengar is essentially removing the fact that fog of war and bushes exist in the game. There either needs to be a global "Rengar has entered hunting" like Nocturne or you simply need to remove it. Thematically the ult is ruined and balance wise in most situations it's better to just wait for them to walk past a bush you're sitting in rather than telling the enemy "HEY IM GONNA GETCHA".

This rework really makes me sad. You took every reason to play rengar (burst, tower pushing, actually being able to assassinate targets) and removed it. Rengar is now just another brusier (at least i think he is? I have no clue what role or where he's supposed to fit into a team) who doesn't have an ult. I seriously can't think of a single situation I'd use my ult in. Tank rengar is also dead because he can no longer initiate.

It isn't all bad though. The bola change i really like that it's now a skillshot. Not much else to say here, having it being targeted really kept the spell forcibly weak. The roar changes are good too, not sure about the heal as i haven't had a chance to really dig down and play him (i've played a lot of rengar though). The Q change effectively turned it into a glorified AA reset that doesn't work on towers. This change just makes me laugh. If you're worried about rengar's split push why can Nasus Q turrets? TF bluecard + lichbane can literally 4 shot a tower and yet rengar isn't allowed the capability to.

I like the direction taken with the trinket. Having 5 item slots really gimped him and forced him not to be able to take it *COUGHVIKTORCOUGH*.

Let his Q hit towers. Revert his ult changes. Balance wise it's too early to tell how his kit will play out, personally I'm leaning towards underpowered. Thematically you've completely gutted his ult regardless of how he is now balanced. I don't care if he has a 70% win rate in challenger his ult is thematically ruined and i really wish you guys would take how a character should feel into consideration. A hunter stalks his prey. He doesn't prance around with a giant neon sign saying HERE I AM.

That being said, if rengar gets gutted this hard i can't wait to see you beat the living hell out of nidalee. She did a better job of assassinating than rengar ever did. If you're gonna play the "anti-fun" card here on Rengar ult i expect to see nidalee nerfs. Or at least a 3 second channel with a flashing alert saying Nidalee is preping a spear from fog of war.

Edit: Sorry if my tone is bitter, after playing league for over 3 years and owning all the champs rengar is the only champ i can come close to calling a main. I have to switch it up constantly else i cannot stay interested. Rengar is the only champ that had replayability for me.

Also, what's rengar's intended role now? He's not an Assassin. He's not an AD caster (talon or Garen depending on your interpretation). What does he bring to a team? I don't get what rengar is supposed to be now that you clearly don't want him to be an assassin. He's certainly not a bruiser, you removed his attack speed and AA reset. I just i don't get Rengar anymore or your intent for him. This rework accomplished nothing but making him weaker and removing his strong points and what defined him as a character and for his kit.

Edit: Dangit i keep adding things. Here's a TL;DR: Other players seem to agree. We don't care if he has a 70% winrate in challenger thanks to this rework. You thematically removed what made rengar rengar. His ult does more harm than good now.


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Booty BIaster

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Com*****ator View Post
Rengar needs his AA reset back.

He feels so slow now.
I feel like making a more in-depth response.

What exactly is Rengar supposed to be now? I really have no idea. His Q doesn't really do much of anything unless you build damage. Even then, only the ferocity Q feels like it's doing something. But it's really hard to build damage because of how weak that makes him early. His sustain is terrible early, and it scales harder with level than rank, so maxing it first doesn't help all too much.

Speaking of sustain, I'm not entirely sure how strong he is in the jungle anymore. Before he had a decent first clear (even with his sub-par sustain) due to his Q's attack speed. Now that that is gone, his first clear goes by much slower and is heavily reliant on a good leash, otherwise he'll most likely die to a level 2 invade, or at least have to back after a Buff > small camp > Buff clear. But that's just my experience using 21/9 masteries, so there might be some other way to jungle that I don't know of.

Continuing with his jungling, his ganks are better pre-6 now because of the improved range of his E, but weaker 6 because of the indicator. Speaking of which, I'm not entirely sure why that exists. He can't burst nearly as hard or as quickly as he could before unless he's absurdly fed, but that can be said for anyone, really.

Anyways, back to my original question of "What does Rengar do now?", I feel like you're trying to make him into some weird kind of bruiser/tank/initiator/thing as opposed to his old beefy assassin style. Which, honestly, is probably a good change. Having a huge semi-tank than can instagib squishies from stealth is terrible design, but at least it fit thematically (not that I'm using that to justify it). I guess now he's more of a bruiser that does well in extremely extended fights, where he can heal multiple times and possibly get multiple ferocity Q's off, granted his sticking power (outside of jungle fights) is lacking compared to most tanks (See: Nasus, Shyvana, Mundo, Malphite, hell even Kha'Zix), but it's a good start at least.


As far as jungling goes, I think his Q could use some attack speed back (only when used on monsters though), or at least bonus damage to monsters. His initial clear is painful compared to what it was before, and his lack of early sustain due to the level scaling isn't helping much.

I don't play much top Rengar so I can't say much about that.



TL;DR:
> I don't understand why his ult has a warning on it for enemies due to his lack of burst
> His early jungle clears could use help by either more significant heals or bonus Q damage on monsters
> I really like the E change. Allows for better ganks pre-6
> Probably needs some work, but current design is better than the old tanky-instagib assassin design
> I don't really know what he's supposed to be good at anymore


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mogonk

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Senior Member

04-03-2014

1. His Q feels awful. It's really easy to accidentally cancel it now and it doesn't flow smoothly out of his leap. It also doesn't seem to reset his auto attacks, which is...weird.

2. Nerfing his base damage while buffing his ratios was a terrible idea. You took away his burst so he can't assassinate any more which means he absolutely has to build like a bruiser...then you structure his abilities to take advantage of building assassin. WUT? Don't force me to build like Renekton and then take away my ability to do any damage if I build like Renekton.

3. Making his ferocity abilities scale off level results in feeling like you have less agency in determining his capabilities. Maxing W to sustain in lane? Maxing E to provide more ranged support/cc in sieges, etc.? Nope. Can't do it.

4. He can't trade vs. champs that trade well. Go playtest Renekton or Darius vs. Rengar in top lane. Seriously. I'll wait.

5. He can't cs without eating harass from champs that harass well and he doesn't have the sustain to tank through it. Go playtest Ryze or Kennen vs. Rengar in top lane. Seriously. I'll wait.

6. Add #4 and #5 together and the result is that 90% of the commonly picked top laners are bad matchups for him. That simply isn't viable. He will not see play unless something dramatic is done.



I appreciate you trying to communicate with us on this issue. If you have any thoughts related to the above points I would love to hear them.


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exec3

Senior Member

04-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
The Q not working on towers feeling bad might be a truth but do we agree that Rengar's split pushing was absolutely obnoxious without tradeoffs? If not, maybe that's where the conversation should start.
My issue here is the inconsistency between champions. Some champions with on next hit abilities work on towers (Wukong, Trundle and Nasus hitting them for half health) but others don't (Poppy and now Rengar). I feel like a sweep should be done to create consistency, either all on next hits work or none do.