@Xelnath About the possible changes for Lulu in the future.

First Riot Post
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MrChymera

Junior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
That's a pretty good point. Our main thought process around nerfing E damage was that it was the most un-interactive part of her kit (click a dude, deal damage to dude) and that ultimately we would like to move power from there to other parts of her kit that have more interesting gameplay.

We also largely believed that nerfing her Q base damage would cripple her viability as a Support, but we may be wrong on that?
I'm sure there are lots of ways to play her. personally I put 1 point in Q at 1 for the slow and level 1 harass and then leave it until I have to level it again. I often feel that the mana costs of EQ are too high compared to the damage or damage mitigation of E combined with the damage mitigation from W. I don't really think about using Q heavily until I get a chalice. Late game the damage from E is the only interaction I have with champions like Zed, Lee Sin, or Leblanc who move around so much that aiming a skillshot is worthless. I'm not that good at the game, but honestly I think a damage nerf on Q, particularly the AP damage scaling would go mostly unnoticed for me when I play her as support.


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SmokingPuffin

Senior Member

04-02-2014

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Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
We agree we failed to ensure that she was still equally as viable in her traditional role as a bottom lane Support for this patch.
Normally we would either A) understand we significantly affected her bot lane viability and make compensatory buffs or B) confirm that we did not hurt her viability in her traditional role.
Is this a new design philosophy for season 4?

Previous nerfs to Alistar jungle, Nunu top, and Taric top (there are probably more examples) didn't seem to have this approach. I had grown to think that collateral damage is all but an inevitability, and I don't recall any previous examples of compensatory support buffs for off-role nerfs.


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Statikk

Live Balance Designer

04-02-2014
5 of 7 Riot Posts

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Originally Posted by AnonTwo View Post
If i could just ask two things Statikk:

1. You say a champion who is picked for being safe and reliable can't be a mid laner...but...but nature, aren't all supports this way? Most of their kit is designed to protect or ensanre. By their nature they either keep things alive or increase reliability. How can a support be a suitable mid laner, when their pros are in fact the things that they shouldn't be picked for?

What do you imagine Lulu should be picked for in lane then?

2. Why can't mid's participate if lulu can't die? Is killing Lulu literally the only way they can participate in the game? What does Lulu do to prevent them from seeking some other objective?
When we say overly "reliable," we really just mean we think the champion is too good against too many things. Mid lane Lulu wins the majority of her lane matchups and outright crushes many of them.

That is a lot different than being reliable as a protector or source of CC for her teammates, we're fine with that. We just don't like her being able to have such a huge advantage in lane against almost any champion.

I guess our take is that mid lane Lulu should be taken as a way to give a ton of Movement Speed to an ally and a way to protect a high priority target on her team (or synergize with an initiator for a wombo combo).

The problem isn't that Lulu doesn't die in the lane, it's that she consistently harasses out her opponents and forces them to back or risk dying while maintaining her relatively high safety.


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Statikk

Live Balance Designer

04-02-2014
6 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokingPuffin View Post
Is this a new design philosophy for season 4?

Previous nerfs to Alistar jungle, Nunu top, and Taric top (there are probably more examples) didn't seem to have this approach. I had grown to think that collateral damage is all but an inevitability, and I don't recall any previous examples of compensatory support buffs for off-role nerfs.
It's definitely something we're adopting much more as we have continued to grow and learn while working on LoL.

Sometimes we will have to outright push a champion out of an off-role because of the game health problems they present and the costs / tradeoffs we would have to make to their primary role to make the off-role healhty. We're definitely going to try much harder to find room for these off builds to work, but I can't promise that we will always be able to deliver on that.


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Lichblade

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Can't this be said that same about Renekton? How come he only gets slap to the wrist nerfs/compensated while Lulu gets hit on support role?

Unless you guys are still looking into him. I heard from some other red (can't remember who) that it is 'alright' for Renekton to push out and make other top laners unviable because you guys wouldn't like whoever is going to take his spot?

How is that even fair?


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zMajin

Senior Member

04-02-2014

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Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
When we say overly "reliable," we really just mean we think the champion is too good against too many things. Mid lane Lulu wins the majority of her lane matchups and outright crushes many of them.

That is a lot different than being reliable as a protector or source of CC for her teammates, we're fine with that. We just don't like her being able to have such a huge advantage in lane against almost any champion.

I guess our take is that mid lane Lulu should be taken as a way to give a ton of Movement Speed to an ally and a way to protect a high priority target on her team (or synergize with an initiator for a wombo combo).

The problem isn't that Lulu doesn't die in the lane, it's that she consistently harasses out her opponents and forces them to back or risk dying while maintaining her relatively high safety.
Lulu does this for, what, one patch? Nerfed. Nidalee does it for 4 years and nobody gives a care. Sure, Lulu does it more consistently and better, but it's still the exact same thing.


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Jarvan Krislov

Senior Member

04-02-2014

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Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
It's definitely something we're adopting much more as we have continued to grow and learn while working on LoL.

Sometimes we will have to outright push a champion out of an off-role because of the game health problems they present and the costs / tradeoffs we would have to make to their primary role to make the off-role healhty. We're definitely going to try much harder to find room for these off builds to work, but I can't promise that we will always be able to deliver on that.
I mained Zyra season 2 (mid) and season 3(support) and she's still one of my favorite champions, but I won't even play her bot lane save for very specific match-ups, and I won't play her mid anymore (too many hard-counters, and other champions like Orianna and Lux are safer than Zyra). Do you have any thoughts on Zyra? She's meant to be a mid-lane mage, but after her hotfix in season 2 she was repeatedly nerfed to due being "too strong for the support role."


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SmokingPuffin

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
It's definitely something we're adopting much more as we have continued to grow and learn while working on LoL.

Sometimes we will have to outright push a champion out of an off-role because of the game health problems they present and the costs / tradeoffs we would have to make to their primary role to make the off-role healhty. We're definitely going to try much harder to find room for these off builds to work, but I can't promise that we will always be able to deliver on that.
I don't mind when a champion ends up getting pushed out of an off-role. I understand it's not realistic to balance champions for multiple roles and sometimes you need to make a call.

I really didn't like it when Alistar disappeared from the support role in season 2 because he ended up getting balanced as a jungler.


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Devi Freak Mint

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Senior Member

04-02-2014

Have you considered that Chalice/Athene's may be too strong for how cheap they are and how early you can buy them?

880g for Chalice coupled with blue buff means infinite mana at level 7. Near infinite by itself.
Magic Resist on the item means you can spam more and you take less damage from their harrass.
20% CDR + MR + Infinite mana for 2600g is pretty cheap.
Getting more casts is generally stronger than getting slightly stronger casts at early game since base damage is most of everyone's damage.


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Labcown

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
The problem isn't that Lulu doesn't die in the lane, it's that she consistently harasses out her opponents and forces them to back or risk dying while maintaining her relatively high safety.
If this is the problem with Lulu, what does that say of Nidalee? She's problematic in the same way you just described Lulu, harasses an opponent into leaving lane while maintaining a high level of safety, even more so than Lulu. The harass with Nidalee is even worse, it only takes one or two Qs to shove an opponent out of lane.