@Xelnath About the possible changes for Lulu in the future.

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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
These nerfs were directed at reigning in some of Lulu's more abusive lane harass patterns - especially when she snowballs ahead.
Although her laning harass patterns have risk and interactivity in the duo lane, the same rules don't always apply in solo lanes. In fact, against many other champion in the solo lane, Lulu can freely harass them with little to no repercussions at higher range while they have no way to interact with her.

Once again, it's an unfortunate truth, but many gameplay patterns that work well in a certain lane can be toxic for game health when brought to other lanes. This is something we always actively design around.


So Lulu using E+Q to harass enemies from a safe distance is terrible, toxic, and has to be nerfed meanwhile Nidalee does the exact same thing with her Q, while doing significantly more damage, to the point she removes enemies from team fight with 1 Q, and she is just fine?

Now not gonna say nid needs nerfs, frankly I don't think she does and I don't think Lulu does, just pointing out what I can only perceive as hypocrisy, and a double standard based on what you said here.

This reminds me very much of of the old "Soraka/Sona heals are toxic and bad for game health" mean while Nid heal continues to be better than both. It's ironic how you keep nerfing supports over and over again, when Nid does exactly what you say is bad for the game, better than they do.


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Statikk

Live Balance Designer

04-02-2014
2 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic Blue Fox View Post
Hello Statikk, I wish to thank you in advance for taking time to respond to this. I very much appreciate you doing so as I know Xelnath, you and the other Rioters are quite busy.

I am glad that you are maintaining focus to ensure Lulu is not hindered overall, but I do wish to question about a recent change for another champion for similar reasons as Lulu. That champion is Annie, she too has been seeing large change due to being in a role outside of her expected one.

The most recent changes her changes were not damaging to her respective role, but in fact compensated her in other aspects while also serving to reduce the core issues that you had felt she had. Do you intend to do this for Lulu?
It depends on the result of the following analysis, but yes, we will make compensatory changes if we feel she's now lacking as a duo lane Support.


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Statikk

Live Balance Designer

04-02-2014
3 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiIIerGecko View Post
So you hit E, which she doesn't max first? If her early game damage through Q poke is the problem, how does hitting E, affect this? She won't start ranking E until lvl 8.
That's a pretty good point. Our main thought process around nerfing E damage was that it was the most un-interactive part of her kit (click a dude, deal damage to dude) and that ultimately we would like to move power from there to other parts of her kit that have more interesting gameplay.

We also largely believed that nerfing her Q base damage would cripple her viability as a Support, but we may be wrong on that?


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Hellioning

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyrofsand View Post
So Lulu using E+Q to harass enemies from a safe distance is terrible, toxic, and has to be nerfed meanwhile Nidalee does the exact same thing with her Q, while doing significantly more damage, to the point she removes enemies from team fight with 1 Q, and she is just fine?

Now not gonna say nid needs nerfs, frankly I don't think she does and I don't think Lulu does, just pointing out what I can only perceive as hypocrisy, and a double standard based on what you said here.

This reminds me very much of of the old "Soraka/Sona heals are toxic and bad for game health" mean while Nid heal continues to be better than both. It's ironic how you keep nerfing supports over and over again, when Nid does exactly what you say is bad for the game, better than they do.
This bothers me as well. Nid outheals Soraka who has maxed her heal at 20 AP if Nid also maxes her heal. It heals for more than half the health and has half the cooldown. Soraka is better at burst healing, but when you outheal the person who's entire shtick is 'healer' than maybe you have a problem.

And I know Riot know that Nid is a problem (or at least I hope they do) but that doesn't change anything when you call something that also applies to her 'toxic' as a reason to change another champion.


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AnonTwo

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Senior Member

04-02-2014

If i could just ask two things Statikk:

1. You say a champion who is picked for being safe and reliable can't be a mid laner...but...but nature, aren't all supports this way? Most of their kit is designed to protect or ensanre. By their nature they either keep things alive or increase reliability. How can a support be a suitable mid laner, when their pros are in fact the things that they shouldn't be picked for?

What do you imagine Lulu should be picked for in lane then?

2. Why can't mid's participate if lulu can't die? Is killing Lulu literally the only way they can participate in the game? What does Lulu do to prevent them from seeking some other objective?


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GuiltyGecko

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
That's a pretty good point. Our main thought process around nerfing E damage was that it was the most un-interactive part of her kit (click a dude, deal damage to dude) and that ultimately we would like to move power from there to other parts of her kit that have more interesting gameplay.

We also largely believed that nerfing her Q base damage would cripple her viability as a Support, but we may be wrong on that?
I have a thread floating around with a long explanation, but i'll try to keep this short. As a Lulu Suppport Main, I found maxing E to be a better way to play because it was more consistent harass. Now, you may say that point and click damage is bad, but the trade-off was that A:You have to get closer to use it, putting you in more danger, B:You couldn't then use your E defensively, and C: Did less damage than if you could have successfully pulled off an EQ combo. The benefit was that it was more consistent form of poke than Q though.

If Lulu is supposed to be a support, and supposed to be about utility, then wouldn't lowering the AP damage Ratio on Q and/or E make more sense, and then buff the base/utility ratios on her abilities?

Maxing Q or E as Support Lulu added decision making. Do I want to max Q because I am against a Cait with long range/I am in a 2v1/I want to push OR do I max E because it is more consistent poke while also allowing me to rank my defensive ability.

I just think this could have been handled a bit better is all.


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Statikk

Live Balance Designer

04-02-2014
4 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5C4r3Cr0w View Post
Speaking on champs that reduce viable champ pools, howabout that Renekton?
Yeah I figured this would be coming up, because it's a legit argument. I don't want to derail too much because this is a thread about Lulu, but Renekton is definitely an issue and as you can see in the latest patch notes we are trying to off load some of his early lane dominance elsewhere.

Don't want to go too in-depth here, but we basically feel if we nerf Renetkon, a new bully will just rise up in his place that is potentially even more unhealthy for the game due to our generic fighter designs. Our current approach in one of the upcoming patches is to take a look at some of the top lane champions we think would make top lane more interesting and give them buffs so they can better compete with champions like Renekton.

A more holistic approach to fully solve the "Fighter" issue is to make our fighters have more defined strengths and weaknesses both in lane matchups and in overall team / game strategy, but that's a project that would take a long time to finish.


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Hellioning

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Yeah I figured this would be coming up, because it's a legit argument. I don't want to derail too much because this is a thread about Lulu, but Renekton is definitely an issue and as you can see in the latest patch notes we are trying to off load some of his early lane dominance elsewhere.

Don't want to go too in-depth here, but we basically feel if we nerf Renetkon, a new bully will just rise up in his place that is potentially even more unhealthy for the game due to our generic fighter designs. Our current approach in one of the upcoming patches is to take a look at some of the top lane champions we think would make top lane more interesting and give them buffs so they can better compete with champions like Renekton.

A more holistic approach to fully solve the "Fighter" issue is to make our fighters have more defined strengths and weaknesses both in lane matchups and in overall team / game strategy, but that's a project that would take a long time to finish.
Wasn't the fighter rework supposed to come out with 4.0? Then again, so was the rune rework, so meh. Glad to see that you're aware that your fighters are almost all terrible. As long as you remember that the lesser of two evils is still an evil, and realize that Renekton is also terrible.

How about Thresh?


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Gaggle of Koalas

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Don't want to go too in-depth here, but we basically feel if we nerf Renetkon, a new bully will just rise up in his place that is potentially even more unhealthy for the game due to our generic fighter designs.
I think we know the real reason Statikk, you aren't fooling us.

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Dfenestrator

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post

In Lulu's case, we are not happy with the primary reason for her being picked in mid lane being that she is a safe, reliable laner who bullies a large majority of other mid lane champions. This is true of any champion in any role. When a champion's job in the game is to make sure other champions don't get a chance to participate in the game, there's a problem.
Just pointing out, that there are lots of other champions which have been problematic for other lanes for a long time now (e.g. Renekton) who haven't received nearly as much attention as quickly as Lulu has at mid. I'm happy that you're trying to open up more options mid, but just want to point out that it sometimes takes you guys way too long from a player's standpoint to fix other problematic champs in the game. I realize you guys felt that Ren was the 'best of the worst' to have strong top, but it still feels pretty terrible for me as a player when it takes that long to fix problems.