@Xelnath About the possible changes for Lulu in the future.

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Statikk

Live Balance Designer

04-02-2014
1 of 7 Riot Posts

Hey Mystic Blue Fox and other Lulu players here,

Firstly, unfortunately I am not Xelnath.

Secondly, I'd like to say that we really appreciate the calm and constructive way you made this thread. Awesome.

I want to take some time to clarify our perspectives on Lulu, why we're doing what we're doing now, and what we plan to do moving forward.

We are genuinely happy (and excited) that Lulu can be a mid lane Support champion who brings different strengths than other popular mid laners - especially in terms of potential team compositions.
When Lulu can be brought mid lane to help build a team composition around say protecting an allied Vayne, that's super cool. In fact, this type of champion and team composition diversity is something we'd like to see a lot more of.

One of the most common criticisms is that due to the Support utility scaling we added in the new season, mid lane Lulu makes herself and her teammates super fast, and that that is a bad / annoying thing. We actually think it makes the game more interesting and gives players different reasons to pick and play different champions. Not every champion should need to bring a ton of damage and blow everything up. Some champions bring other strengths to the table.

We don't just hate any and all Supports that are played in mid lane.
In Lulu's case, we are not happy with the primary reason for her being picked in mid lane being that she is a safe, reliable laner who bullies a large majority of other mid lane champions. This is true of any champion in any role. When a champion's job in the game is to make sure other champions don't get a chance to participate in the game, there's a problem.

Another common historical case people bring up is mid lane Janna, which is perfectly reasonable. The primary issue with Janna at the time was that she created a very un-interactive laning phase by continuously charging up her Q to just wave clear and force enemies under their turret which drastically reduced the potential viable picks in that lane.

At the end of the day, we'd prefer if Support mid laners were being brought for their unique Supportive strengths such as protecting /enhancing their allies. It's really awesome when these type of picks increase champion diversity rather than stifle it.

These nerfs were directed at reigning in some of Lulu's more abusive lane harass patterns - especially when she snowballs ahead.
Although her laning harass patterns have risk and interactivity in the duo lane, the same rules don't always apply in solo lanes. In fact, against many other champion in the solo lane, Lulu can freely harass them with little to no repercussions at higher range while they have no way to interact with her.

Once again, it's an unfortunate truth, but many gameplay patterns that work well in a certain lane can be toxic for game health when brought to other lanes. This is something we always actively design around.

We agree we failed to ensure that she was still equally as viable in her traditional role as a bottom lane Support for this patch.
Normally we would either A) understand we significantly affected her bot lane viability and make compensatory buffs or B) confirm that we did not hurt her viability in her traditional role.

We simply ran out of the normal amount of analysis time and data gathering we would need to accurately execute on this.

To be clear, this does not mean that she is not viable as a bot lane Support currently. It simply means that we failed to ensure that her bot lane power was still up to par with this release. It still might be, but either way it's something we need to look into and work on if needed.

We will be following up by doing internal analysis on her status as a bot lane Support and take action in an upcoming patch if necessary.
This is something that is currently ongoing. Lulu's current viability as a bot lane Support is something we're taking a hard look at to make sure we didn't mess anything up here. If she is no longer viable in her intended role, you can expect we'll be making changes until she is.

Anyway, I know it was long, but I really wanted to address everything I've been reading / hearing. Once again, thanks a ton for the constructive posts.


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Mystic Blue Fox

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Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Hey Mystic Blue Fox and other Lulu players here,

Firstly, unfortunately I am not Xelnath.

Secondly, I'd like to say that we really appreciate the calm and constructive way you made this thread. Awesome.

I want to take some time to clarify our perspectives on Lulu, why we're doing what we're doing now, and what we plan to do moving forward.

We are genuinely happy (and excited) that Lulu can be a mid lane Support champion who brings different strengths than other popular mid laners - especially in terms of potential team compositions.
When Lulu can be brought mid lane to help build a team composition around say protecting an allied Vayne, that's super cool. In fact, this type of champion and team composition diversity is something we'd like to see a lot more of.

One of the most common criticisms is that due to the Support utility scaling we added in the new season, mid lane Lulu makes herself and her teammates super fast, and that that is a bad / annoying thing. We actually think it makes the game more interesting and gives players different reasons to pick and play different champions. Not every champion should need to bring a ton of damage and blow everything up. Some champions bring other strengths to the table.

We don't just hate any and all Supports that are played in mid lane.
In Lulu's case, we are not happy with the primary reason for her being picked in mid lane being that she is a safe, reliable laner who bullies a large majority of other mid lane champions. This is true of any champion in any role. When a champion's job in the game is to make sure other champions don't get a chance to participate in the game, there's a problem.

Another common historical case people bring up is mid lane Janna, which is perfectly reasonable. The primary issue with Janna at the time was that she created a very un-interactive laning phase by continuously charging up her Q to just wave clear and force enemies under their turret which drastically reduced the potential viable picks in that lane.

At the end of the day, we'd prefer if Support mid laners were being brought for their unique Supportive strengths such as protecting /enhancing their allies. It's really awesome when these type of picks increase champion diversity rather than stifle it.

These nerfs were directed at reigning in some of Lulu's more abusive lane harass patterns - especially when she snowballs ahead.
Although her laning harass patterns have risk and interactivity in the duo lane, the same rules don't always apply in solo lanes. In fact, against many other champion in the solo lane, Lulu can freely harass them with little to no repercussions at higher range while they have no way to interact with her.

Once again, it's an unfortunate truth, but many gameplay patterns that work well in a certain lane can be toxic for game health when brought to other lanes. This is something we always actively design around.

We agree we failed to ensure that she was still equally as viable in her traditional role as a bottom lane Support for this patch.
Normally we would either A) understand we significantly affected her bot lane viability and make compensatory buffs or B) confirm that we did not hurt her viability in her traditional role.

We simply ran out of the normal amount of analysis time and data gathering we would need to accurately execute on this.

To be clear, this does not mean that she is not viable as a bot lane Support currently. It simply means that we failed to ensure that her bot lane power was still up to par with this release. It still might be, but either way it's something we need to look into and work on if needed.

We will be following up by doing internal analysis on her status as a bot lane Support and take action in an upcoming patch if necessary.
This is something that is currently ongoing. Lulu's current viability as a bot lane Support is something we're taking a hard look at to make sure we didn't mess anything up here. If she is no longer viable in her intended role, you can expect we'll be making changes until she is.

Anyway, I know it was long, but I really wanted to address everything I've been reading / hearing. Once again, thanks a ton for the constructive posts.
Hello Statikk, I wish to thank you in advance for taking time to respond to this. I very much appreciate you doing so as I know Xelnath, you and the other Rioters are quite busy.

I am glad that you are maintaining focus to ensure Lulu is not hindered overall, but I do wish to question about a recent change for another champion for similar reasons as Lulu. That champion is Annie, she too has been seeing large change due to being in a role outside of her expected one.

The most recent changes her changes were not damaging to her respective role, but in fact compensated her in other aspects while also serving to reduce the core issues that you had felt she had. Do you intend to do this for Lulu?


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GuiltyGecko

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Snip.
So you hit E, which she doesn't max first? If her early game damage through Q poke is the problem, how does hitting E, affect this? She won't start ranking E until lvl 8.


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Maximum LuIu

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Showing my support here. Lulu needs not another nerf. Isn't 8 in a row enough?


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Mystic Blue Fox

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Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiIIerGecko View Post
So you hit E, which she doesn't max first? If her early game damage through Q poke is the problem, how does hitting E, affect this? She won't start ranking E until lvl 8.
For myself, when I support as her, the duration of Help Pix! upon my enemy is important and with this reduction it harms my effective use of the spell. As for the damage, I must agree as I personally do not max out Help Pix! until later.


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guiltui

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Get rekt support circlejerk, now stop QQing.


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Maximum LuIu

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
To be clear, this does not mean that she is not viable as a bot lane Support currently. It simply means that we failed to ensure that her bot lane power was still up to par with this release. It still might be, but either way it's something we need to look into and work on if needed.
Change mid lane Lulu all that you want. However it must be TOP PRIORITY that you leave Support Lulu a strong and competitive pick. I trust Riot knows what they are doing with this situation. These changes have upset us. I trust you will fix that.


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5C4r3Cr0w

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Hey Mystic Blue Fox and other Lulu players here,

Firstly, unfortunately I am not Xelnath.

Secondly, I'd like to say that we really appreciate the calm and constructive way you made this thread. Awesome.

I want to take some time to clarify our perspectives on Lulu, why we're doing what we're doing now, and what we plan to do moving forward.

We are genuinely happy (and excited) that Lulu can be a mid lane Support champion who brings different strengths than other popular mid laners - especially in terms of potential team compositions.
When Lulu can be brought mid lane to help build a team composition around say protecting an allied Vayne, that's super cool. In fact, this type of champion and team composition diversity is something we'd like to see a lot more of.

One of the most common criticisms is that due to the Support utility scaling we added in the new season, mid lane Lulu makes herself and her teammates super fast, and that that is a bad / annoying thing. We actually think it makes the game more interesting and gives players different reasons to pick and play different champions. Not every champion should need to bring a ton of damage and blow everything up. Some champions bring other strengths to the table.

We don't just hate any and all Supports that are played in mid lane.
In Lulu's case, we are not happy with the primary reason for her being picked in mid lane being that she is a safe, reliable laner who bullies a large majority of other mid lane champions. This is true of any champion in any role. When a champion's job in the game is to make sure other champions don't get a chance to participate in the game, there's a problem.

Another common historical case people bring up is mid lane Janna, which is perfectly reasonable. The primary issue with Janna at the time was that she created a very un-interactive laning phase by continuously charging up her Q to just wave clear and force enemies under their turret which drastically reduced the potential viable picks in that lane.

At the end of the day, we'd prefer if Support mid laners were being brought for their unique Supportive strengths such as protecting /enhancing their allies. It's really awesome when these type of picks increase champion diversity rather than stifle it.

These nerfs were directed at reigning in some of Lulu's more abusive lane harass patterns - especially when she snowballs ahead.
Although her laning harass patterns have risk and interactivity in the duo lane, the same rules don't always apply in solo lanes. In fact, against many other champion in the solo lane, Lulu can freely harass them with little to no repercussions at higher range while they have no way to interact with her.

Once again, it's an unfortunate truth, but many gameplay patterns that work well in a certain lane can be toxic for game health when brought to other lanes. This is something we always actively design around.

We agree we failed to ensure that she was still equally as viable in her traditional role as a bottom lane Support for this patch.
Normally we would either A) understand we significantly affected her bot lane viability and make compensatory buffs or B) confirm that we did not hurt her viability in her traditional role.

We simply ran out of the normal amount of analysis time and data gathering we would need to accurately execute on this.

To be clear, this does not mean that she is not viable as a bot lane Support currently. It simply means that we failed to ensure that her bot lane power was still up to par with this release. It still might be, but either way it's something we need to look into and work on if needed.

We will be following up by doing internal analysis on her status as a bot lane Support and take action in an upcoming patch if necessary.
This is something that is currently ongoing. Lulu's current viability as a bot lane Support is something we're taking a hard look at to make sure we didn't mess anything up here. If she is no longer viable in her intended role, you can expect we'll be making changes until she is.

Anyway, I know it was long, but I really wanted to address everything I've been reading / hearing. Once again, thanks a ton for the constructive posts.
Speaking on champs that reduce viable champ pools, howabout that Renekton?


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Hellioning

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Hey Mystic Blue Fox and other Lulu players here,

Firstly, unfortunately I am not Xelnath.

Secondly, I'd like to say that we really appreciate the calm and constructive way you made this thread. Awesome.

I want to take some time to clarify our perspectives on Lulu, why we're doing what we're doing now, and what we plan to do moving forward.

We are genuinely happy (and excited) that Lulu can be a mid lane Support champion who brings different strengths than other popular mid laners - especially in terms of potential team compositions.
When Lulu can be brought mid lane to help build a team composition around say protecting an allied Vayne, that's super cool. In fact, this type of champion and team composition diversity is something we'd like to see a lot more of.

One of the most common criticisms is that due to the Support utility scaling we added in the new season, mid lane Lulu makes herself and her teammates super fast, and that that is a bad / annoying thing. We actually think it makes the game more interesting and gives players different reasons to pick and play different champions. Not every champion should need to bring a ton of damage and blow everything up. Some champions bring other strengths to the table.

We don't just hate any and all Supports that are played in mid lane.
In Lulu's case, we are not happy with the primary reason for her being picked in mid lane being that she is a safe, reliable laner who bullies a large majority of other mid lane champions. This is true of any champion in any role. When a champion's job in the game is to make sure other champions don't get a chance to participate in the game, there's a problem.

Another common historical case people bring up is mid lane Janna, which is perfectly reasonable. The primary issue with Janna at the time was that she created a very un-interactive laning phase by continuously charging up her Q to just wave clear and force enemies under their turret which drastically reduced the potential viable picks in that lane.

At the end of the day, we'd prefer if Support mid laners were being brought for their unique Supportive strengths such as protecting /enhancing their allies. It's really awesome when these type of picks increase champion diversity rather than stifle it.

These nerfs were directed at reigning in some of Lulu's more abusive lane harass patterns - especially when she snowballs ahead.
Although her laning harass patterns have risk and interactivity in the duo lane, the same rules don't always apply in solo lanes. In fact, against many other champion in the solo lane, Lulu can freely harass them with little to no repercussions at higher range while they have no way to interact with her.

Once again, it's an unfortunate truth, but many gameplay patterns that work well in a certain lane can be toxic for game health when brought to other lanes. This is something we always actively design around.

We agree we failed to ensure that she was still equally as viable in her traditional role as a bottom lane Support for this patch.
Normally we would either A) understand we significantly affected her bot lane viability and make compensatory buffs or B) confirm that we did not hurt her viability in her traditional role.

We simply ran out of the normal amount of analysis time and data gathering we would need to accurately execute on this.

To be clear, this does not mean that she is not viable as a bot lane Support currently. It simply means that we failed to ensure that her bot lane power was still up to par with this release. It still might be, but either way it's something we need to look into and work on if needed.

We will be following up by doing internal analysis on her status as a bot lane Support and take action in an upcoming patch if necessary.
This is something that is currently ongoing. Lulu's current viability as a bot lane Support is something we're taking a hard look at to make sure we didn't mess anything up here. If she is no longer viable in her intended role, you can expect we'll be making changes until she is.

Anyway, I know it was long, but I really wanted to address everything I've been reading / hearing. Once again, thanks a ton for the constructive posts.
Right, here are my thoughts, in no particular order:

1) If you wanted to hurt mid Lulu without hurting support Lulu too much, why did you hit her base damage, instead of her scaling? Supports buy less AP than mids do; even if they buy frost queen and build the rest AP, they have to use an item slot for sightstone, meaning that they get less benefit off of any ratios they have.
2) I can understand that being able to clear a wave and force the opponent under tower is annoying, but I'm confused as to why Janna's not allowed to have that and Orianna/Ahri/Ziggs/Malz are. They bring a lot more damage, too, which made it baffling.
3) I think the problem you're having with people being better in other lanes than the one you expected were because of how tightly you force the traditional meta (don't even try to deny that, that stupid 'bot tower is stronger for no reason' change is inexcusable) so when things go outside that meta no one can handle it. That's why it's unhealthy for Lulu to be in mid but not support.
4) I agree that a pick being so good that it changes viable options by forcing people to pick champions that can handle that pick is a bad thing for the game. So where's the Thresh nerfs?
5) Why did it take so long for support Annie to get nerfed (and she got compensatory buffs!) but mid Lulu was nerfed in a much shorter time (with no compensatory buffs)? That's the thing I'm most upset about.


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MadnessJoker777

Senior Member

04-02-2014

the patch notes have come out. too late.