What I think about Riot's recent balance decisions

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Riot Pwyff

Player Communications

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03-20-2014
4 of 13 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauron View Post
That's why this was the wrong thread for discussion. I've been one of the louder advocates of more Riot communication/openness for years now, and even I can tell you that ducking out here is the better option. You brought information that others hadn't known (channel time reduction), and that's about the maximum possible benefit that can be brought.
I shrug off aggression fairly well.

The reason I hopped into here was because this particular argument just needed pushback on because then we get further and further away from each other in terms of mental models that actual dialogue becomes difficult.

If a video like this becomes "proof" of an argument, that's not good. I watch it and I fully disagree with it because we do value unique power curves - just not when champions win a phase of the game by being picked - and if our changes don't reflect it, then call us on that (because while the changes might actually be healthy and accomplish their goal, the outcry seems to not see it). That comes down to trust and perception. So I disagree with a video that seems to be echoing a hyperbolic stance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skaarrjj View Post
Look. The way I See it is this.

People don't want to get nerfed to the point of being underpowered or uselessness. And that generally people are okay with things that are mildly OP. The games more fun like that.

What's not okay is when things are overnerfed and you might as well not play them, and when something is stupidly OP. But the problem with adjusting lee sin NOW the way you guys are (and I'm a guy who wants to nerf lee sin, I hate him, but I dont want him destroyed) is because for so long you guys have only minorly tweaked him here and there, and you left him alone mostly, as in no drastic changes. You sent the message of "Yeah, well Lee is balanced now". Then you come out of left field with these HUGE HUGE nerfs.

Champions should not be underpowered, or nerfed to a really bad spot. That's not good for the game. I'd rather keep a champion mildly OP than have him UP.

I honestly dont believe anyone really thinks that you guys are homogenizing things, even when they type that.

People are concerned with champion power levels. There's a few too high, and some too low.
This is a far better articulated point, so I'll respond to it. I think you have two core points:

1.) Don't nerf things so drastically.
2.) We didn't expect Lee Sin changes.

The first point I won't reallllly comment on because that comes down to maybe we can find a good line in between. The second point I'm really interested in because I agree. I think we should have found a better way to communicate the Lee Sin changes in a more organic discussion and more openly made aware that there is a problem space where Lee Sin, by being picked, topples that game scene in such a way that he becomes almost a hard counter to many, many things as a single champion. There are very few champions that do that.

From our own end, one thing I'd ask is for patience. We're actively now trying to get better at this but I'll explain a specific pain point here: scale. We have so many players right now that we were trying to communicate with as many of them at the same time. Unfortunately, that lead us down the path of constructing bullet-proof messaging (or so we thought) that sounded an awful lot like monologues with no discussion. Discussion is inherently a small scale concept, and when you deal with the scale that we're dealing with, it gives me headaches every day. Imagine trying to have an empathetic discussion that brings others to your mental model when there are millions of players out there. How do you even coordinate that?

But that's not an excuse, it's just what our problem space is. I agree that Lee Sin could have / should have been communicated better over a longer course of time and with more discussion to bring you on board. Leeson learned.


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RelaxingBrownies

Senior Member

03-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skaarrjj View Post
And I totally get how champions being OP can drown out certain picks.

But you have to ask yourselves this.

Is that champion really that much out of line? Or is it the other champions its "drowning out" from being picked are just not good enough in the first place?

Don't ask yourself what's easier or harder. You'll always arrive at the wrong conclusion if you think that.
That's like saying "We didn't win, you guys lost" It's not deep, and it doesn't really prove any real point.

Lee's problem is he has an overloaded kit compared to the rest of the champions. To make them as good, then every other jungler needs boatloads of utility and gapclosers


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Skaarrjj

Senior Member

03-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pariswho View Post
1.5 seconds much buff such wow
But seriously that doesn't help anything when he can just WALK into lane faster and avoid wards that ult range nerf is such a joke and panth got NO alategame scaling buffs or mana buffs even though he NEEDS them
Uh, if anything this is actually a hidden buff to pantheon's ultimate.

Yes you will have to do walk closer to the target you want to ult at.

But you only channel for .5 seconds now.

And then 1.5 seconds to land at the target.

You can effectively escape situations with pantheon's ultimate you normally never could, and you can actually catch people with his ultimate better too.


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KiyoSpirit

Senior Member

03-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post

If you're literally not allowed to play a champion because they picked a different champion, that's a hard counter and it's not great.
Anivia says hi to Fizz.


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Vahlenx

Senior Member

03-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skaarrjj View Post
You're not really being serious, you aren't using the right words.

What you really want is for pantheon not to get nerfed and maintain his currently powerful nearly unavoidable ganks with his ultimate that you cant ward to see.

What's so unique and special about PAntheon teleporting to a spot on the map? Nothing. Twisted fate does that. The summoner Teleport can do that, so anyone can do that.

You want power.
Pantheon is no different from Eve in that he provides high % ganks.......but if they were so "unavoidable" why don't we see pantheon dominating every single LCS bot lane when he's played? Because guess what? His ganks ARE avoidable by accounting for the fact that he's in the game, just like Eve.

By your logic it's no different from teleport, should teleport then be nerfed? You're bronze, accept the fact that people much better than you have already stated that BOTH of these champions are being homogenized from a scaling point of view.


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AfraidOfBirds

Senior Member

03-20-2014

Rito's balance is sexist. Notice most of the FOTM champs we have now are females. I'm sick of this waifu shit. Can we have some manlier champions back to FOTM status?


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Prismatic

Senior Member

03-20-2014

I have to say, because they are "evening out the power levels" of most champions, I think this is a great way to make the game healthier and more fun. The one piece of a relevant, similar situation is what's been going on in starcraft for the last long while. Instead of balancing the game and gearing it for similar power scaling and what not, they allowed for an extremely long time, the ability to win games simply based on timing alone. The example I will use is the Stalker + Core rush build on protoss. With this simple build, it is clearly more powerful than almost any other build, and can be operated with extreme ease. With this build, games are not fun to play (or watch) because it's hardly a decision to be made. With an overbearing early game, why would you ever pick the playstyle that is geared towards the late game when this super simple, super powerful build nullifies any attempts to play the game any differently?

If you don't know what happened because of this extremely poor decision, Blizzard has had more pro players quit this year than all other years of starcraft 2 combined.

Could you imagine if Riot would attempt to do that as well? Having a ridiculously good early game isn't good for the game, it shuts out any other options for meaningful gameplay and decision making. If they instead buffed a select few (possibly including lee sin) you would never see anyone else but the champions that were buffed and directed to a strong early game, and this would then have every single game be whoever got the best early game would be able to absolutely and completely shut down any other strategy, because you can smooth over a bad late game with a great early game. It would destroy LoL as we know it.

For this reason, I am in agreement with Riot's decision to even out multiple champions power levels, rather than have some champions with retardedly strong early games


TLDR: Stronger early games / no smooth power curve means that gameplay is reduced to whoever has the strongest early game, because if you win early you can shut others down completely. This is bad for the game. Riot is right (IMO) to nerf the early game of various champions, in order to make them have a smoother power curve.


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ForumPostingAcco

Senior Member

03-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
I shrug off aggression fairly well.

The reason I hopped into here was because this particular argument just needed pushback on because then we get further and further away from each other in terms of mental models that actual dialogue becomes difficult.

If a video like this becomes "proof" of an argument, that's not good. I watch it and I fully disagree with it because we do value unique power curves - just not when champions win a phase of the game by being picked - and if our changes don't reflect it, then call us on that (because while the changes might actually be healthy and accomplish their goal, the outcry seems to not see it). That comes down to trust and perception. So I disagree with a video that seems to be echoing a hyperbolic stance.



This is a far better articulated point, so I'll respond to it. I think you have two core points:

1.) Don't nerf things so drastically.
2.) We didn't expect Lee Sin changes.

The first point I won't reallllly comment on because that comes down to maybe we can find a good line in between. The second point I'm really interested in because I agree. I think we should have found a better way to communicate the Lee Sin changes in a more organic discussion and more openly made aware that there is a problem space where Lee Sin, by being picked, topples that game scene in such a way that he becomes almost a hard counter to many, many things as a single champion. There are very few champions that do that.

From our own end, one thing I'd ask is for patience. We're actively now trying to get better at this but I'll explain a specific pain point here: scale. We have so many players right now that we were trying to communicate with as many of them at the same time. Unfortunately, that lead us down the path of constructing bullet-proof messaging (or so we thought) that sounded an awful lot like monologues with no discussion. Discussion is inherently a small scale concept, and when you deal with the scale that we're dealing with, it gives me headaches every day. Imagine trying to have an empathetic discussion that brings others to your mental model when there are millions of players out there. How do you even coordinate that?

But that's not an excuse, it's just what our problem space is. I agree that Lee Sin could have / should have been communicated better over a longer course of time and with more discussion to bring you on board. Leeson learned.
Cool. Why was wriggles nerfed in patch 4.4?

Why did your balance team think it was a good idea to implement the Wriggles nerf without implementing the "Feral Flare buff"?

If the item is already underpowered (which is why Feral Flare even exists on the PBE), why nerf it for an entire patch?

This game is supposed to be "competitive". Why was Wriggles nerfed?

You need to answer this before I can take anything you say seriously.


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James T Kirk

Senior Member

03-20-2014

My only real question is, "Why is a hard counter bad?"

Personal opinion incoming: Please note that I primarily play premade 5s.

It comes down to deciding which direction you want to take your game, In my opinion hard counters are absolutely necessary and make the game more tactically interesting. For me personally, the game is not about winning my lane hardcore and then 1v5ing, it's about making legitimate decisions in teamplay that turn the game later on. My primary characters have several "hard counters" that will literally eat me for lunch in lane if I let them, but it really doesn't bother me, because we have a plan to beat it.

Now, for people who only play one champion as I see in ultra low games (not badmouthing, just typically people with <300 wins, I can understand why a hard counter would be frustrating in solo quene. But what direction are you trying to take the game? Honestly, to /some/ extent, I'm glad Riot doesn't do like Volvo and make everything based on professional play balance wise, but at the same time part of me says "Why do we not encourage people to master how to play against stronger picks and win as a team?"

(Almost done, drunk and probably incoherent anyway.)

On a second note, no I don't LIKE all of the ((TENTATIVE)) PBE changes, but it won't make me stop playing Lee or Kass.


Tl;Dr
Riot needs to decide what ELO they are going to balance around and stick to their guns, and anyone that complains about "OP Champions" needs to engage their brain and improve their own skills.

((ALL PERSONAL OPINION))

Edit: Addendum, I am aware that drunk is not the best time to contribute to balance discussions, sue me.


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MackleDoge

Senior Member

03-20-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vahlenx View Post
Pantheon is no different from Eve in that he provides high % ganks.......but if they were so "unavoidable" why don't we see pantheon dominating every single LCS bot lane when he's played? Because guess what? His ganks ARE avoidable by accounting for the fact that he's in the game, just like Eve.

By your logic it's no different from teleport, should teleport then be nerfed? You're bronze, accept the fact that people much better than you have already stated that BOTH of these champions are being homogenized from a scaling point of view.
Caution: Dick sighted. Because insulting fellow members of the community always makes you seem intelligent and proves your point.