Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-08-2010
168 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppetSoul View Post
Taric's stun.

In general practice it does less damage, has lower AP scaling, and stuns for less time than Sion's stun; on a character who functions nearly identically.
Taric's stun is actaully not a case of inconsistency. It's a closing mechanic, and it always stuns. So you get the interrupt no matter what, but you trade closing ability for damage later on. I think it works out pretty well.


Quote:
Also, about the Flash argument: if they remove flash, about half of the heroes will simply become unplayable due to having no movement skills or counter-disables, and thus no way to survive the laning phase.
well.. now you are being dramatic.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-08-2010
169 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Expertise View Post
One easy-to-see anti-pattern:

Katarina: The player does NOT know how to optimize her. Her ultimate chooses between the higher of her AP or AD. This is unclear on what to build her. If you build her AP, her BB is useless. If you build her AD, her Shunpo, her BB is useless.

Evelynn: You clearly give her attack speed and movement speed for her ultimate, but yet all of her other skills are AP. Another one unclear optimization for another champion.
I don't agree 100% with your analysis but I agree that hybrid champions tend to be problematic except in a few cases.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-08-2010
170 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takalah View Post
So how exactly does Karthus's ult not fit into the realm of anti-fun?

Seriously, it can't even be much fun for those doing it, it takes zero skill.
It's a matter of how much damage it does and how frequently you can do it. At very high values, it clearly is terrible. At lower values, it's maybe okay. I think it's OK.

- Zileas


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-08-2010
171 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydog View Post
Power Without Gameplay: Teemo's Toxic Shot; Cardmaster's Stacked Deck; other passive skills
I don't know that I agree on toxic shot, because it promotes hit and run harassment gameplay and kiting gameplay. But I agree in general that these sorts of skills tend towards this pattern.

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Burden of Knowledge: Poppy's Diplomatic Immunity... kind of a stretch since it's clear once you read the tooltip
Yeah, I agree 100%.

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Unclear Optimization: Malzahar's Call of the Void
Not so sure about this one.

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Use Pattern Mis-matches Surrounding Gameplay: Kennen's Lightning Rush; Kayle's auto-attack; Gangplank in general
Lightning rush -- yes absolutely, though the ult reduces the problems a lot by making this a stunfest mode he goes into from time to time. Kayle's auto attack - yes, but it's not severe. Gangplank does need a remake.

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Fun Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun: Twitch's Spray and Pray; other excessive burst AoE damage
I think more of AE stuns as doing this, or maybe vlad's pool (almost). I think spray and pray is just OP.

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Conflicted Purpose: Cho'Gath's Feast (dying, then choosing to build your HP on creeps vs. saving it for champions)
True.

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Anti-Combo: Tristana's Buster Shot, sort of? That's a stretch...
Yeah, it borders on it.

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False Choice -- Deceptive Wrong Choice: Shaco's Hallucinate (kind of a stretch though)
I don't agree here, killing the clone can be valid, and there are ways to observe its the clone.

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False Choice -- Ineffective Choice: Tryndamere's Mocking Shout and general gameplay definitely forces opponents into picking from multiple equally poor choices
Don't agree, players just dont choose either with it generally. Burden of knowledge could be applied though.

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Or We Could **** the Player!!1111oneoneone: Karthus' Requiem (especially since the Cleanse nerf); the suppression mechanic
Depends on the strength. I think these are minor in the history of video games. Chain stuns feel more like this .

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Non-Reliability: Cho'Gath's Feast; Gangplank's Parrrley and Cannon Barrage (big time); stealth in general
I dont agree on feast, because it gives reliable effects in certain situations that you can detect. Parrrley is getting remade to not be RNG, as is cannon barage. Stealth needs an overhaul, absoluteyl.


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Dragonk

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Senior Member

12-08-2010

Zileas your the head of the design team so I know you know the answer to this. Why hasn't Blind Monk been released, whats the general problem with his kit? Is he generally too powerful to be released? Is he lacking in some way? Honestly now, it would be a great thing to give everyone a little bit of insight about. He was obviously a part of your original designs, it certainly seems you were ready to add him to the game.


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Rydog

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Recruiter

12-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Re: Fun Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun
I think more of AE stuns as doing this, or maybe vlad's pool (almost). I think spray and pray is just OP.
Eh, I know I have fun decimating people with a well-placed Spray and Pray, but boy, this is the anti-fun for the three people that just got murdered with almost no way to effectively retaliate. I'd say Blitzcrank's Rocket Grab can be a case of this, too. I also think that probably falls under Burden of Knowledge; until you learn the very specific mechanics of his grab (and realize he can grab through walls), it's one of the most infuriating, overpowered-seeming skills in the game.

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Re: False Choice -- Ineffective Choice
Don't agree, players just dont choose either with it generally. Burden of knowledge could be applied though.
You can turn and fight (and probably get critted to death), or run and still get critted to death. It's kind of a Sophie's choice. Or it would be, if Tryndamere was any good.

Quote:
Re: Or We Could **** the Player!!1111oneoneone
Depends on the strength. I think these are minor in the history of video games. Chain stuns feel more like this .
On second thought, yeah, this probably applies to stuff like, say, Zilean chain-slowing. Snowball items basically embody this too, although I suppose that's the losing team's fault (getting one-shotted by Veigar or Annie sure sucks either way). Twitch's Spray and Pray used to be this when games went long, but not quite as much anymore.

Quote:
Re: Non-Reliability
I dont agree on feast, because it gives reliable effects in certain situations that you can detect. Parrrley is getting remade to not be RNG, as is cannon barage. Stealth needs an overhaul, absoluteyl.
Thank god on Gangplank. Is that happening next patch? I want so desperately for him to be worth playing.

...

Random but possibly relevant question (similar to a question that an earlier commenter asked): Do you guys have specific "balance points" for each champion category? Like, is Annie the mage you balance other mages around, with regard to rough overall power level? What about tanks? Ranged carries? Support? Junglers?


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CovertGhoul

Senior Member

12-08-2010

Before the possibility of the removal of flash, will their be a functioning Test Realm for a larger audience, or will all of that testing be down in-house? I think something like that should be tested on a much larger scale before live implementation, imo.


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BJSV

Senior Member

12-08-2010

I still dont like these anti-patterns... -.-
Cause of this many skills, like faceless voids ulti, wont be used in this game cause ppl need to learn how to use them, or rupture cause ppl need some knowledge about the game to understand this. This "we are focusing casual players" thing is making LoL more and more boring and unchallenging.
I, as an old dota player, can more or less master every champ really easily, and you can see while you are in game who played dota before LoL just by watching them play. But, this game is so beginner friendly, cause of all these anti-patterns, that even though I AM a better player than some ppl, they get to advance into higher ELO. Seeing how even though someone who doesnt deserve a win, but is playing some easy OP champ, wins a game, is anti-fun.

AND cause you are restricted by anti-patterns all champions have recycled abilities. And recycling wont balance this game. Sooner or later you will get some skill combo that will just be OP and you wont be able to fix it just by changing some number and than what will you do? Remake champion? Delete champion? Stop releasing champions? Its just stupid and im against this.


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Doriantv

Member

12-08-2010

I used to play DotA (pub games), and the downright massive Burden of Knowledge barrier turned me off from it. That and the really crappy interface and unergonomic feeling of the whole thing. LoL was like a breath of fresh air, and I hope you guys keep up what you're doing for the most part.

@above poster:

Champs with higher skill ceilings are also champs with highly nuanced utility roles (and possibly higher damage potential). Anivia can stun, slow, wall off, debuff, etc multiple people, while Garen...silences one guy and then deals damage. The only difference is that Garen is the more reliable pick since it's easier for him to fulfill his (smaller) role.


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BJSV

Senior Member

12-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocketball View Post
I used to play DotA (pub games), and the downright massive Burden of Knowledge barrier turned me off from it. That and the really crappy interface and unergonomic feeling of the whole thing. LoL was like a breath of fresh air, and I hope you guys keep up what you're doing for the most part.

@above poster:

Champs with higher skill ceilings are also champs with highly nuanced utility roles (and possibly higher damage potential). Anivia can stun, slow, wall off, debuff, etc multiple people, while Garen...silences one guy and then deals damage. The only difference is that Garen is the more reliable pick since it's easier for him to fulfill his (smaller) role.
Even though i played Dota for 5 or 6 years, with every new hero that was released came burden of knowledge, but i never had problem with it. It was logical to NOT KNOW how things work when you first start playing the game.

And you compare Anivia and Garen? How about LeBlanc and Garen? Or LeBlanc and Anivia? There isnt a single situation in which LeBlanc would be a better pick.