Rengar Rework Strikes Back

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Karede

Senior Member

03-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amalek View Post
I know its a frustrating position to be in, but that's the way it has to work. Either he focuses on Skarner and Rengar gets pushed back or the other way around. Please try and be patient.

Sorry if that doesn't really help all that much but its all I've got - From previous poster


So why are they jumping back and forth? Why didn't they focus on Skarner when Skarner was who they were reworking, why jump from Rengar BACK to Skarner again? Clearly shows this balancing department is a joke IMHO.
It's this kinda attitude that is gonna let him sink Rengar like a rock.

He came in, nerfed Skarner to the scrapheap, promised some changes, then just basically said "Looks good" and moved on. If the community supports and reinforces this behavior, he's gonna do it to other champs he doesn't like too.

He ignored 4 MONTHS of constructive criticism and just won't even talk to the forum. Or give it any time at all.

Scruffy, come on man, you owe us more than that.


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LittleBoyChaser7

Junior Member

03-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
It's this kinda attitude that is gonna let him sink Rengar like a rock.

He came in, nerfed Skarner to the scrapheap, promised some changes, then just basically said "Looks good" and moved on. If the community supports and reinforces this behavior, he's gonna do it to other champs he doesn't like too.

He ignored 4 MONTHS of constructive criticism and just won't even talk to the forum. Or give it any time at all.

Scruffy, come on man, you owe us more than that.
Well, to be fair, its THEIR game, and its a free game nonetheless. They don't owe you squat. Don't like something in the game? Tough nuts, complaining and telling them they OWE you more will get you nowhere. The fact of the matter is that its their game and they can do whatever the heck they want and if you don't like it don't play it.


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Karede

Senior Member

03-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBoyChaser7 View Post
Well, to be fair, its THEIR game, and its a free game nonetheless. They don't owe you squat. Don't like something in the game? Tough nuts, complaining and telling them they OWE you more will get you nowhere. The fact of the matter is that its their game and they can do whatever the heck they want and if you don't like it don't play it.
Getting stuck on the wrong words my friend. Not gonna argue that it's his game, not gonna say it's mine.

This guy made promises and he hasn't filled them yet. I'm sure you don't want him treating rengar the same.

Shoot, he's not even willing to talk about them.


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LittleBoyChaser7

Junior Member

03-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
Getting stuck on the wrong words my friend. Not gonna argue that it's his game, not gonna say it's mine.

This guy made promises and he hasn't filled them yet. I'm sure you don't want him treating rengar the same.
To be completely fair I haven't read any of the skarner stuff so i don't know anything about promises. All I understand is that he got a pretty bad nerf in his rework, and I understand the disappointment. Was merely trying to make a point of how Scruffy or riot does not "owe" anything. Sorry if I might've come across as a little rude.


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arwingflyer98

Recruiter

03-09-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by lm Krueger ml View Post
@Scruffy/Jag

While I've been considering different possibilities for Rengar's kit I've noticed a fairly annoying trend in balance issues. Namely that his Empowered abilities totally screw the power balance of his normal abilities because it negates their cooldown limitation.

For example:
- Lets say E was in fact a full on Root or Stun as baseline.

By itself this isn't a problem, however this would now mean that by extension his Empowered E must also at least Root or Stun the target. This is the factor that makes it ridiculous because you can then chain the two CC's together for a silly amount of control.

So in order to make this whole process easier I have a request:
- Can we move away from the concept that Empowered Abilities mimic the original?



Let me extend this so you can see the potential of what I mean.

Currently, Q gives bonus attack speed... so you've made Empowered Q give even more attack speed. What if Empowered Q gives zero attack speed bonus? It means that you can balance the normal Q AS steroid as an individual entity, unaffected by its Empowered version that breaks the CD.

His W gives defensive stats. At present I assume his Empowered version also gives those defenses as well as healing him. This means that:
- The duration of the defensive buff must be lowered to compensate.
- The power of the heal must be lowered to compensate.
- The cooldown of the basic W must be increased to compensate.

What if his Empowered W only healed him? Doesn't that give a lot more room to increase the heal and make his baseline W give a longer buff or have a reduced cooldown?

His E however is the most problematic:
- you can't let him enter a fight with Ferocity, because allowing him to initiate with a root then re-build Ferocity to re-root the target again very quickly is too strong.
- you can't let his baseline E do very much cc because it will be followed up by a stronger cc shortly after, which would be too strong.

What if his Empowered E is not a Bola at all? What if its something completely different? Suddenly his normal Bola could root the target quite happily because you know it will be gated by its cooldown correctly. It allows you to shift more power into his skills because it negates this weird hidden power of having essentially an extra use of Q,W or E off the cooldown.



I'll surmise these points into an example kit alteration so you can better see what I mean:
- Empowered Q only deals bonus damage based on enemy missing health (no AS steroid)

- W cooldown lowered/duration increased
- Empowered W only gives sustain (instant or over time or both) based on Rengar's missing health (no AR/MR)

- E now roots the target as baseline and grants vision if the unit is not stealthed
- Empowered E redesigned, Rengar now leaps to a nearby enemy target (does not deal damage, resets swing timer)


The point here is that, by de-linking Empowered abilities so that they don't directly mimic their base counterpart, each individual ability is a unique effect that can be balanced appropriately. All baseline skills are gated by cooldown. Empowered abilities are gated by Ferocity gain and the fact that only one can be used at a time. This allows for much more flexibility in the power budget of his kit and should free up a lot more options for you to try out.
To be honest, this is one of the best ideas on this thread that I've seen so far. I'd be EXTREMELY happy if this was implemented to Rengar as a champ.


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TacticalAce

Junior Member

03-09-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by LululuCawCaw View Post
-E range increased from 575 to 1000

Don't forget skillshot will make him much less of a lane bully early.


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NA Darklarik

Senior Member

03-09-2014

Scruffy, there is a point about Rengar Q that i would like if you could adress please, which is why it has no scaling?

Most champions that i see that have some form of "Next AA enhancer" Such as Nasus, Jax, or Poppy among others, have some form of scaling on the ability.

Rengar has none, its just flat Bonus damage that lategame falls off REALLLY HARD for his regular Q. Considering his Q is now his main form of damage and what he uses during engagements and trades, would it be too ludicrous trying to give the ability's bonus damage some form of scaling?

Cuz lategame, an aa with just 150 extra damage against say, a tipical bruiser or tank that has 2500+ HP and usually more than 150 armor is going to tickle them. And thats all you can really do. Bola is more utility and W is more defensive. As far as trades go rengar feels like he cant do anything lategame, which is why so many people build him assassin and go for squishy targets, he has no real way of fighting Riven, Jax, Renekton, Darius, Mundo, Shyvana, Olaf, Garen, Irelia, Volibear, Udyr, Tryndamere, [Insert any other Top lane Tank/Bruiser/Fighter that can build Defenses or have a ton of shields and still deal tons of damage]

The attack speed component is great for the jungle and all, but considering that some of the trades in top lane are blow a combo then disengage and wait for cooldowns, that att speed dosent always really come into play in top lane trades, especially against in and out opponents like Riven for instance.


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RiotScruffy

Game Designer

03-09-2014
39 of 48 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by NA Darklarik View Post
Scruffy, there is a point about Rengar Q that i would like if you could adress please, which is why it has no scaling?
This is actually a really good question. I think it would make sense to lower the flat damage scaling per level and convert it into some % AD scaling to let it scale better into the late game.


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NA Darklarik

Senior Member

03-09-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
This is actually a really good question. I think it would make sense to lower the flat damage scaling per level and convert it into some % AD scaling to let it scale better into the late game.


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Coldmanj

Senior Member

03-09-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
This is actually a really good question. I think it would make sense to lower the flat damage scaling per level and convert it into some % AD scaling to let it scale better into the late game.
you mean it wasnt that way?