Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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hyliandanny

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Senior Member

12-07-2010

Well, since you mentioned LeBlanc, I guess this is a better place than a facebook note to write (and ask!) about my perceptions of her passive.

Power of Control

Unlike Shaco, LeBlanc's passive is dependent upon:
- "negative" play: getting hit
- an external source of damage

That is, the LeBlanc user has no control over the passive's invocation.

Potential for Unavoidable Uselessness

The reason I mention Shaco is because the bugs that affect the doppleganger ability can be minimized, or eliminated, by control. The doppleganger ability currently suffers from (what I'd call bugs...) these constraints:

- champion can be pinged; the ping persists and is not replicated across the doppleganger
- champion can be marked graphically somehow, and the mark will not be replicated across the doppleganger
- champion can be affected by a CC, and the doppleganger will not be affected

To avoid a ping, Shaco can get out be out of sight (bushes, etc.) when choosing to invoke the doppleganger ability. The visual effect and CC can be avoided by choosing to invoke the doppleganger ability when the visual effect and CC are no longer afflicting Shaco.

As someone who has played LeBlanc, here is how I have discovered causing guaranteed uselessness of an enemy LeBlanc.

1. Ping them immediately. I have the control of their passive. Combined with the ping, I can identify the real LeBlanc at all times.
2. Notice the graphic on LeBlanc. (example: Oracle's Elixir indicator) It will not be replicated across the doppleganger.
3. Cast a CC on LeBlanc at around 45/50% life. The doppleganger will immediately start auto-attacking while the real LeBlanc remains stunned; the slowed LeBlanc will be slow (with the slow graphic effect) while the doppleganger has no affliction.

Another bug that makes her uncontrolled passive a curse-instead-of-blessing can be replicated below. This is also why I noted "external source of damage" in the Power of Control section instead of NPC versus player sources.

Summary: LeBlanc's passive causes creeps to reset.
1. Go to the golem spawn point with LeBlanc.
2. Start attacking and damaging down the golem until your health reaches the point of invoking LeBlanc's passive.
3. ---> The golem has reset.

If you didn't design LeBlanc's passive, could you ask whoever did to maybe share why it was designed so? The flashy, notable spell effects for all her abilities, combined with a short duration and a completely null attack potential, make me wonder about the principles behind this uncontrollable passive.


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Orimoth

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Senior Member

12-07-2010

Zileas -- while the movement aspect of flash has been discussed to no end, what are your thoughts on the projectile "popping" aspect of it?

I think it's really fun to be able to counter projectiles if you're willing to expend the summoner spell to do so, and plays into tower diving as well -- the ability to pop a tower's shot mid-flight is oftentimes the difference between a successful dive and a failed one.

If Flash gets removed, would that open the possibility for a new summoner spell (Call it Phase Shift, if you will) that pops projectiles and gives half a second of stealth (or some such) when used?


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-07-2010
166 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyliandanny View Post
Well, since you mentioned LeBlanc, I guess this is a better place than a facebook note to write (and ask!) about my perceptions of her passive.

Power of Control

Unlike Shaco, LeBlanc's passive is dependent upon:
- "negative" play: getting hit
- an external source of damage

That is, the LeBlanc user has no control over the passive's invocation.

Potential for Unavoidable Uselessness

The reason I mention Shaco is because the bugs that affect the doppleganger ability can be minimized, or eliminated, by control. The doppleganger ability currently suffers from (what I'd call bugs...) these constraints:

- champion can be pinged; the ping persists and is not replicated across the doppleganger
- champion can be marked graphically somehow, and the mark will not be replicated across the doppleganger
- champion can be affected by a CC, and the doppleganger will not be affected

To avoid a ping, Shaco can get out be out of sight (bushes, etc.) when choosing to invoke the doppleganger ability. The visual effect and CC can be avoided by choosing to invoke the doppleganger ability when the visual effect and CC are no longer afflicting Shaco.

As someone who has played LeBlanc, here is how I have discovered causing guaranteed uselessness of an enemy LeBlanc.

1. Ping them immediately. I have the control of their passive. Combined with the ping, I can identify the real LeBlanc at all times.
2. Notice the graphic on LeBlanc. (example: Oracle's Elixir indicator) It will not be replicated across the doppleganger.
3. Cast a CC on LeBlanc at around 45/50% life. The doppleganger will immediately start auto-attacking while the real LeBlanc remains stunned; the slowed LeBlanc will be slow (with the slow graphic effect) while the doppleganger has no affliction.

Another bug that makes her uncontrolled passive a curse-instead-of-blessing can be replicated below. This is also why I noted "external source of damage" in the Power of Control section instead of NPC versus player sources.

Summary: LeBlanc's passive causes creeps to reset.
1. Go to the golem spawn point with LeBlanc.
2. Start attacking and damaging down the golem until your health reaches the point of invoking LeBlanc's passive.
3. ---> The golem has reset.

If you didn't design LeBlanc's passive, could you ask whoever did to maybe share why it was designed so? The flashy, notable spell effects for all her abilities, combined with a short duration and a completely null attack potential, make me wonder about the principles behind this uncontrollable passive.
The passive was supposed to be minor defense, but i agree it's not that useful. we will bug fix the ping issue.


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Deadlytorch

Senior Member

12-07-2010

If udyr is going to be nerfed , will you nerf his jungling power? His Phoenix stance is his real crutch. He depends on Lizard buff because his Bear Stance is about 1 Second. And with merc treads the stun is even shorter. True its spammable and you can use it on more then 1 target. I feel like its not enough for 1 second. If it could be extended, like a mini-buff on his stun along with the nerf I could except it


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S1AL

Senior Member

12-07-2010

Zileas, I must say that I strongly disagree with your opinion on what is "fun." I liked playing against and with Lion and his mana drain. The first time I died to the proper use of that ability, I was not raging... I was impressed. I liked playing with and against a good Pudge. I enjoyed the back-and-forth timing of anti-mage. I enjoyed the complexities of Rupture and knowing when to run, when to fight, and when to do both in the correct order. I ENJOY a challenge.

You know what I don't like? Tryndamere. Tryndamere is anti-fun. He is not complex, he is not interesting, and he's a favorite with noobs. Why? Because in the late-game you get to 3/4-shot anyone with 2400 hp or less, he's easy as Hell to play, and you can beat a better player by right-clicking.

So, please take a moment to reevaluate your opinion of what is "fun" for the people playing this game... because your understanding of it is lacking.


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hyliandanny

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Senior Member

12-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
The passive was supposed to be minor defense, but i agree it's not that useful. we will bug fix the ping issue.
I should not have used numbers for how I make her useless. Those are not sequential steps, but three different points that all result in my making her passive useless.

-Danny
just in case


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Dragonk

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Senior Member

12-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
The Blind Monk's abilities were far too complex, he required too much micro management which was far too much overhead for a normal player. To put it simply I'm jealous of Guinsoo's overall design prowess.
Well I don't like the answer... but thanks for the response Zileas. You know I like to micro manage my champions.


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Expertise

Senior Member

12-07-2010

One easy-to-see anti-pattern:

Katarina: The player does NOT know how to optimize her. Her ultimate chooses between the higher of her AP or AD. This is unclear on what to build her. If you build her AP, her BB is useless. If you build her AD, her Shunpo, her BB is useless.

Evelynn: You clearly give her attack speed and movement speed for her ultimate, but yet all of her other skills are AP. Another one unclear optimization for another champion.


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IS1f1d52ece4eba8be33817

Senior Member

12-07-2010

What do you think about Sion's shield?
I'm sure it is Conflicted Purpose example. Shield brokes when depletes not dealing damage, so when you use that you DON'T want to get hit. That's 300+ shield value being lost.

In my opinion his shield should still deal damage when broken, reduce shield amount to compensate.


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PuppetSoul

Senior Member

12-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Non-Reliability
Skills are tools. Players count on them to do a job. When a skill is highly unreliable, we have to overpower it to make it 'satisfying enough'. Let me give you an example: Let's say Kayle's targeted invulnerability ult had a 95% chance of working, and a 5% chance of doing nothing when cast. We'd have to make it a LOT stronger to make it 'good enough' because you could not rely upon it... and it would be a lot less fun. Random abilities have this problem on reliability -- they tend to be a lot less satisfying, so you have to overpower them a lot more. Small amounts of randomness can add excitement and drama, but it has a lot of downsides. There are other examples of non-reliability, but randomness is the most obvious one. Abilities that require peculiar situations to do their jobs tend to run into the same problems, such as Tryndamere's shout that only slows when targets are facing away from him.
Taric's stun.

In general practice it does less damage, has lower AP scaling, and stuns for less time than Sion's stun; on a character who functions nearly identically.


Also, about the Flash argument: if they remove flash, about half of the heroes will simply become unplayable due to having no movement skills or counter-disables, and thus no way to survive the laning phase.