Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-07-2010
161 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradders11 View Post
I find kog maw and karthus taking buffs from me after i kill them because of their passives anti-fun...is this being fixed?
I don't agree. You were dead anyway, your expectation of retaining the buff should be 0. But they get a lot of fun out of spawning with it. So the anti fun should be less than the fun in that case.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-07-2010
162 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyliandanny View Post
If I'm mistaken in a drawn conclusion, please correct me. You're wanting to make ganks possible without a player overextending, yes?
Correct. But right now, ganks just ARENT possible against some champions without a 3 champion encirclement or DEEP territory penetration.

Quote:
If I model vulnerability as a function of position and base it on the tower location, we see that a player is more vulnerable the farther they are from the tower, with the highest point of vulnerability being at the enemy tower. Flash just means that a player can immediately place themselves farther away and immediately reduce their vulnerability.
In reality, with brush and other advantages, it often can be a gaurantee of escape except in some very specific situations.. especially early on.

Quote:
While I agree that using this from mid might indeed be a disappointment to the gankers, there are ways to beat Flash. Stun, silence, and slows make that vulnerability closer to the non-Flash model and execution becomes a more important factor.
Yes, no doubt. But it's a question of how much escape it gives, how much safety it provides, and how fun this is for everyone in total. I would argue that right now, flash is net negative fun to the game.

Quote:
Bah, okay. You're right that there's less incentive because of the decreased vulnerability; isolated, you're inarguably right. But the most difficult part of setting up a gank, currently, is asking "Does one of us have CC?" in order to skew the vulnerability of the target -- regardless of Flash, because Flash users are also vulnerable to those disables.

It's my claim that there's added value to gank execution because of the use of Flash by the target. Flash users make themselves more vulnerable (I know I do) because of the skewed vulnerability, but this enables the gankers to view an opportunity. In turn, ganks can be more rewarding and fun when executed successfully.

I guess all that's left to ask is whether or not you'd be willing to reverse your removal of Flash if you find that everyone is acting on the left half of the charts (not making themselves vulnerable). That will still result in no incentivized ganks, methinks.
Well sure, but I feel like flash mostly gets used defensively instead of offensively, and ends up mostly just being a pacifying influence.

Quote:
EDIT: This made me wonder why you guys don't do an increased vulnerability to Flash. Such as, "While Flash is not on cooldown, stuns/slows/etc. done to the champion are 50% more effective." or "Flashing while Blind will make the champion flash to a random location within the Flash range." You know, give more value to the CC factors that are already commonly held as the "gank" tools.
I don't like kiss curses like that. They tend to take a satisfying ability and then make it feel crappy, while still giving significant power.


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Churchy

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Friend of Urf

12-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Correct. But right now, ganks just ARENT possible against some champions without a 3 champion encirclement or DEEP territory penetration.
You make it sound like a bad thing, but personally I find encirclement followed by deep penetration to be quite pleasurable.


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hyliandanny

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Senior Member

12-07-2010

I like you, Zileas.


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SFSC

Senior Member

12-07-2010

What about when Mordekaiser's shield? Seems like anti-fun to me. Great, I hit him with my skill shot. It did absolutely nothing.

What about Vladimir's Sanguine Pool? It's really only fun for Vladimir; it's annoying as hell for anyone else.

What about Soraka? Other heroes heal better and her Q functionality really isn't fitting for her. You need to be close to the target(s), it's spammable, and the debuff stacks up to 20 times. That sort of implies that the ability wants you standing in melee range for quite a long time. Yeah...


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-07-2010
163 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyliandanny View Post
Oh, come now. It does so no more than LeBlanc's control-less, hit-me-to-activate passive.
This is GENERALLY the case actually. We like to avoid 'kiss-curse' abilities because we feel they generally do not improve the game. There are of course a few exceptions. Olaf's ability that self-damages is a good example, because he has tools that allow him to make it actually not hurt him, and then it's just a 'smart' berserkey combo.

also, the specific proposal he gave of adding CC duration when flash is on CD would also have a burden of knowledge challenge. enemy players REALLY need to know about that, so we'd have to communicate it... may cause some balancing challenges at different skill levels as well.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-07-2010
164 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Churchy View Post
You make it sound like a bad thing, but personally I find encirclement followed by deep penetration to be quite pleasurable.
to each his own.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-07-2010
165 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFSC View Post
What about when Mordekaiser's shield? Seems like anti-fun to me. Great, I hit him with my skill shot. It did absolutely nothing.
Well, in that case, the shield is clearly displayed, and you can wait for moments where its lower to do this. Or he can counter it with a spell, which is pretty cool too IMO.

Quote:
What about Vladimir's Sanguine Pool? It's really only fun for Vladimir; it's annoying as hell for anyone else.
Yes, this ability has some problems in its present state, that's true.

Quote:
What about Soraka? Other heroes heal better and her Q functionality really isn't fitting for her. You need to be close to the target(s), it's spammable, and the debuff stacks up to 20 times. That sort of implies that the ability wants you standing in melee range for quite a long time. Yeah...
She's an old character, with a lot of issues. I agree that the stacks theoretically signal a behavior that she should not engage in. But she CAN go near melee with her +armor heal and her ult and her silence. So, it's not mismatched gameplay... just weirdness on the max buff stacks.


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Dragonk

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Senior Member

12-07-2010

Why do you think the Blind Monk is anti-fun? He's a great champions design and is all fun and no anti-fun! Also I'm hoping for some changes to Sanguine Pool what a horrible ability, now that truly is anti-fun at its best.


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joshiez

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Senior Member

12-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I would argue that right now, flash is net negative fun to the game.
I absolutely completely agree with this. It's very frustrating to have someone flash out at 10% HP after ganking them when they overextend or push a lane carelessly... BUT, when you flash away from a gank, it's not a 'Sweet!!' feeling, it's 'meh...'