I wonder how bad all the @Riot's want to tell us off.

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

JimMaru

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-18-2014

So, I'll just explain what skimming is and what Mr. Crab is trying to say on an actual example. Seeing people pressing the same button over and over is making me nervous.

Skimming is releasing a product at absurd high prices knowing that people may or may not buy it but since you have no competition you can do whatever you want with the price since no one has anything to compare that product to and can't really have a idea of what that should cost.
Then, when the people who would buy it at the absurd price tag have already spent their money they would reduce the price and then get the money from the people who would only buy at the actual value of the product.
This way the company would maximize their profit by grabbing the difference in price from the two prices of those who could pay absurd prices.

This is what Apple does (or did) with the iPhone. You're nor buying a phone when you buy the apple's brand new gadget. You're buying something "new", so much more than a phone that you won't be able to imagine your life without it after you have one (OR AT LEAST THAT'S HOW THEY SELL IT).
So since it's something different, a "definitely-not-a-phone" you can't compare it's price to anything else. So they try to put the price as high as they can and then as time goes on and they start to lose people's interest and their monopoly they start to lower the price tag.

Riot would be Skimming if they did like this with the ultimate skins:

- Let's assume that the actual price for the skin is 3600 RP.
- Riot releases it at 5000 RP because some people will buy it at that price.
- They got the money from X people who would buy it for that price. And now no one else wants to buy it.
- They make a sale for the skin for half the price which is still bigger than the discounted price we got on the ultimate's skin release. (2500 instead of 1800)
- All the people (Y) who would buy it will buy it at that price, since people who would buy a 3600 skin at 1800 will buy a 5000 RP one for 2500.
- Proceed to say that the skin is too pricey and because you love your community so you will now sell the skin for 3600 RP from now on.

This way the profit goes up by 1400*X + 700*Y RP.
THAT would be skimming and maximizing profits and robbing people's money by manipulating them.

That's what Mr. Crabs is saying. Riot doesn't do this and has nothing to gain from it. We all know the backleash they would get from doing this and Riot is a company that, believing or not actually listens and cares for what the players say.
That "Skimming" is not any different than any DLC practice or "Ultimate" version for capcom and other fighting games and stuff like that. That's exactly what differentiates Riot from C(r)apcom, EA, M$ and so many others.
So please, don't bash one of the only big companies that still gives me hope in the game industry, at least not for this reason.

Hope that helps Mr. Crabs.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Il Shard Il

Member

02-18-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
If I picked what actually frustrates me, it's the conspiracy theories on intent.
There are no conspiracy theories on intent. People notice that you don't give a ****, and they're asking why you don't give a ****.

Maybe if you did your job instead of sucking dick all day, the game wouldn't be so ****ing terrible, and people wouldn't be complaining about literally everything. Notice how good games don't have "the worst online game community in the world" (actual award that Riot has won). It's only bad games that have that.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Darkomantis

Senior Member

02-18-2014

Damn... WizardCrab and Morello, I want to thank you for this valuable information and insight. I may not be the nicest or most intelligent of players in how I act in-game and on the forums but my dream is to become a game designer. Seeing these posts on how you guys do things and what works for you helps me understand League of Legends on multiple levels from a design point of view. Thanks :'(

@Morello
Another Rioter touched upon the topic of compensation a few days. From what I see, he didn't understand why players wanted compensation due to the unstable servers. Sure, players will enjoy long-term stability of the servers without any issues but he forgot that players wanted to PLAY LoL in that period of time. It's not easy swallowing the horrible experience of latency, disconnects(aka uneven teams), and inability to reconnect.

Players will always like not being interrupted by server issues over an extended amount of time. However, when things do happen because of the host's error, compensation serves as recognition that something went bad on the host's part and as a token of apology. This not reflects League of Legends but life in general.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

WizardCrab

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

eCommerce Associate

Follow WizardCrab on Twitter

02-18-2014
52 of 63 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirsir94 View Post
26 Rito posts on a 22 page forum in a 6 hour period. Wow.


Because they don't release 'cheap' skins anymore. By which I mean recolors. Everything seems to have some sort of special effect. Recolors would probably be cheaper and help tone down the 'X champ only has one skin and Y champ is getting another one?!" Plus more money. Ofc that would just lead to a bunch of complaints about the quality of the skins but hey.


What about 450? I know I'm not very far into my Graphics class but since you already did the vast majority of the work (mostly designing the champion shape, but also things like UV mapping if thats the kind of engine you use) would make the recolors literally a one day skin. I don't know exactly what you use but I don't see how it could be THAT much harder...



Hate to join the pack of wolves but come on, you can do better than that. Comparing decent recolors to a bunch of geometric shapes is just plain stupid. And yes I get thats its a dramatization to make a point but the point isn't valid either. People see recolors and think 'man this gaem sux i don wanna play eet' makes no sense at all when there are already other options of the other kind. Meanwhile other people are thinking 'y r all theez skins so expensive i cat get one'. Personally my favorite Morde skin is Infernal and my favorite Malz skin is Prince. Recolors can be done well and with the proper color schemes can sometimes be more effective than the full 1350s

Plz keep in mind that anything that sounds argumentative (aside from the start of the last paragraph, that one kinda was) is not meant that way.
You're right. That may have been an oversimplification. I apologize.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

WizardCrab

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

eCommerce Associate

Follow WizardCrab on Twitter

02-18-2014
53 of 63 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hourendous View Post
Personally...the skin pricing is one of the thing is have no issues with at all honestly, they'll sell regardless, and people on the border can wait for a sale, or not buy, its as simple as that.

But overall, I have only 1 real complaint with Riot, and many little ones(but who doesn't have those about anything, see WHY is it, that when champions go on sale, its ONLY THE RP! theres no reason for IP to not go down either. No IP sale, gives incentives to people to spend RP/money to buy the champ instead of using IP, NOT saying that's why you did it, but that's exactly the effect its going to have regardless, I'd LOVE IP sales for champions along with their RP, IP is hard enough to come buy a sit is at times, for people who don't already have everything)

But my major complaint, is HOW rioters say things on the forums. Its not what they say, its how they say it. See Ironstylus post earlier that got a lot of flack. I'm sure he didn't mean it how it came out, but you need to realize, you need to be VERY clear how you say things, as a lot of posts have a general...smug? air about them. People are seeing that more and more, and are getting annoyed. There are a lot of good rioters to, but every now and then, certain posts basically come off almost...condescending? See Phreak a while back when he used to post more, I personally don't know the guy, so i cant comment on him, but his posts came off as very condescending/know it all to me, the I'm right, your wrong attitude is NOT a healthy one to take, whether that's how he MEANT for it to come out, doesn't matter, because that how it was read by the forum goers. His general statement could very well be correct, but if you come out and almost insult the person your telling it to, people are not going to like it.

A general...tone shift, to being less defensive/evasive about everything, and getting a better idea how to respond to things better would do a WORLD of good for you guys, as the bad will stick out in peoples head more then the good, that's just how people work sadly...so a few bad experiences for people will put a bad taste in their mouth, regardless how many good experiences they may have had....ALSO sorry for the ramble...
Good point. At least this second, I can mostly only improve myself. So do you think I sound that way? Do you have any advice?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

AnonTwo

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-18-2014

If you happen to read this, i just have a thought

I'm not sure if this counts as your department, but have you ever considered giving any freebies to players based on their level? In Dota currently, you get chest rewards at levels...1-10 i believe, then every 5 levels? They tended to have free skin parts (as they sell skins as parts rather than a complete package) and EXP bonuses, or even one time items that can be used on skin parts.

I wouldn't say you want to go to the same extents as they do (don't feel you need to say that yourself ), but even giving a free of the cheaper champions starting off, maybe a EXP/IP bonus on the way, or even a page of runes (level 1 or 2 since those aren't reallly worth purchasing) at certain levels.

Not only would it give you a way to sort of "steer" new players to try multiple roles (say, Garen, Ashe, and Annie), but you could also get them to try various store items and entice them to try to get those again.

Though the free rotation and IP help a ton, a few freebies that aren't even on your mind can be splendid.

Also, i've seen a few Riot Girl Tristana bugs over the past year or so, any idea if those are fixed?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Noraver

Senior Member

02-18-2014

Didn't you guys say that last year you were going to release 750 skins and never did?

Also, I can honestly tell you that selling skins with a sale on their first few release days will make the community feel much better about higher priced skins.

Remember last year when Sultan Tryndamere came out? "We're trying something new, so for the first few days we're releasing him at a lower price!" deal was great. Except, that was NOT the best skin to try that out with, and it was DEFINITELY not a good thing to only do it with one skin.

Any other skin and you would've seen a much bigger reaction from the community.
But because Tryndamere has 9001 skins (And that one seems unpopular anyway), I don't believe it was a good source of data for you guys.

I would highly recommend putting your new 1350/975 skins on sale for the first 1-3 days of its release.

The community will thank you for it, and I bet a lot more people would buy them.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Bikohoness

Senior Member

02-18-2014

@Morello might not be listening any more, but I gotta try...

On the topic of champion reworks (or major rebalancing) I believe it would be beneficial to provide more details about the perceived problems and intentions behind the choices. And honestly, I'm hoping to see numbers, statistical data, "hard" or "soft" evidence.

I think that would do two things:
1) Reduce conspiracy theories. As @Morello stated in his first post, there are a lot of theories that go shooting around on these forums and others about why changes are made. A big reason that happens is because we aren't given any context or data about the process.
2) It would help justify said changes, and in turn that would get more community members behind the decision and able to explain it to people who still aren't understanding.

For example, lets take the Skarner rework that is pretty close to my heart right now. I know that I feel like a lot of changes were simply made on the whims of RiotScruffy and none of them were backed by any hard data. Sure, there were some vague statements made about permaslow being feast/famine, or binary or whatever. But is there some kind of data to back that up? Is it just the feelings of some Riot employee that played against a skilled Skarner player and found it was hopeless? Either of these data points would help community members understand the thought process and reasons that went into some of these decisions.

I know it would take some Riot employee time to compile and post this information, and some people won't find it helpful or interesting. But I can assure you that there are many people who will find it both interesting and very meaningful.

If you want more specific examples of data that would be interesting to know, here are some off the top of my head:
- What were the pick/win rates of Skarner before/after his last big nerf (at the end of S2)
- Has Riot actually done a study of how many champions are capable of escaping "permaslow"? If so, how many?
- Is there some piece of quantifiable data that suggested that old Skarner was overpowered in some way?
- What is the evidence to back up the notion of feast/famine and/or binary nature to his kit? Is there something in his win rates? or item selection?

I'm sure I could go on, but it is late for me so I will thank you for your time and hope for a response.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Bregan

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-18-2014

wizardcrab, i love you. your transparency and humanity has been a much needed and welcomed breath of fresh air.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Aheadatime

Senior Member

02-18-2014

As far as skin pricing goes, the thing that makes me iffy is that there is no actual product involved. If I produce clothing, I must equate the cost of the cotton, silk, polyester, threading, etc. that gets put into each particular article of clothing on top of the man-hours put into it, electricity bills, shipping, and end-game profit margin. So if it ultimately takes me 1$ per pair of jeans after all the math has been accounted for, and I feel (based on competitor pricing, target consumer base, etc) that I can get away with selling these jeans at 40$ a pair consistently at a quantifiable volume, then I'm a rich man.

But with skins, there is no 'product' being produced. I'm assuming (no coding skills whatsoever, so spare me) that once you've 'coded' the visuals for the new skin, you simply patch them into everyone's client server-side, and 'unlock' the codes for people who have given you the money required. This means there is literally 0 material cost. It all boils down to man-hours (and electricity/internet bills).

For example, lets say you guys make a 975 skin. If it takes 2 artists a month to create the idea at a 70,000$ salary, 3 programmers a month to 'code' it(whatever.. told you I dunno what I'm talking about) at a salary of 70,000$ a year , and a market-type-person(advertiser?) two weeks to consider pricing at a salary of 70,000$ a year, then, excluding electricity/internet costs, the skin cost ~31,000$ to make.

Since one dollar equals roughly 144 RP, the skin would cost ~6.7$ per player. There would need to be 4,626 purchases to break even. Any more after that becomes pure profit. I don't know how many people go into making skins, nor how long it takes them (assuming they're devoted to that one project alone), but I can't see the numbers changing too drastically here. You guys have 70 million players. Even if the numbers were tweaked to the point where you needed to sell 1,000,000 skins to break even on a 975 skin, (which would imply it cost 6.7 million to make..), you'd still only need to sell to 2 out of every 100 players to see profit.

Skins are just super cost efficient since there are no material costs. I know you guys need to make money to stay alive and well as a company, and I also know that your profits in part go towards making this game a better experience for all of us via better staff and servers, but I think that the whole resource thing is a bit silly. I doubt any skin has cost even half of my most extreme example, in which case you would make ~3x your money back by selling to 2/100ths of the population.

Tbh, despite the long post, I'm not that concerned with skins. The slowed down iP gains, the increase in iP costs, and the lack of iP giveaways (double iP weekends/holidays) are what concern me the most. There is no amount of man-hours put into iP. There is no way to purchase iP. There is nothing financially attached to iP whatsoever outside of it's relationship to RP, which is financially relevant. The more iP things cost, the more likely a person is to use RP instead, be it on a champion, rune page, or iP boost. There is no other reason to increase prices/slow down iP gains outside of encouraging RP usage.