Rengar Rework Strikes Back

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Flintfall

Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Originally we had the second stealth trigger on kill, but we quickly shifted it to a set time because we think it actually allows for some more interesting situations. We want it to be possible for Rengar to go in, not get a kill, then leave if he thinks the fight is going poorly. Alternatively, he could decide to all in with the second leap and trade his life for a kill in some situations. The fixed window has more general usage that doesn't revolve around Rengar being ahead.
I Think that iteration of the kit wouldn't feel as smooth. It's too forgiving, he is a hunter, who evalulates his target, and takes them out. He fights to the end, yet you are giving the option to turn tail and flee empty handed?

Lore aside, I think the on kill stealth gives him a more rewarding experience than the set time.


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Ostar

Junior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey all, another update on Rengar progress. So far the changes are testing well, but we noticed 2 major things that needed addressing:

-The cooldowns on Q W and E were not matching up well creating a strange pattern for building up ferocity that couldn't really be planned around or mastered
-Rengar has a great time setting himself up for a team fight, finding a backline target and ambusing, but after the fight against his target is over (win or lose) he has no way of getting out or really doing anything meaningful at that point.

So to solve those problems, we're testing 2 new changes, which seem promising:

-Standardize Q W and E cooldowns to 3 12 and 9 at all ranks creating a clear and learn-able combat pattern, the damage per skill level is adjusted to match the new cooldowns
-5 seconds after Rengar unstealths from R he will enter stealth a second time for 3 seconds and be able to leap.

The second change is really interesting: it gives Rengar a fixed window where he is trying to eliminate his target and then can decide if he should run away, try for a second target, or even use his second leap to all in the first target if he failed to kill them initially.
I think a good change would be if he gets the kill he get a buff called succesfull hunt and then his next auto is a jump auto which he could use it on a minion to get out or to get on another target and everyone loves resets and and it to his ult.


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arwingflyer98

Recruiter

02-14-2014

I've already seen a fair amount of others mention this as well, that a second stealth is good, but an automatic one is kinda clumsy and interrupts a fight. Say Rengar is in the middle of unloading his burst on a target, and right in the middle of the sequence, Rengar randomly goes invisible...

No one but those currently reworking Rengar really know how it works in-game, but it still is a bit concerning. Other than that, keep up the good work Scruffy!


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Goddess Din

Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
We want it to be possible for Rengar to go in, not get a kill, then leave if he thinks the fight is going poorly. Alternatively, he could decide to all in with the second leap and trade his life for a kill in some situations.
The issue I have with this is that everybody at Riot is always talking about how they want to make sure the enemy to whatever-champion-is-being-reworked has the opportunity for counterplay in order to out play their opponent. Adding this re-stealth mechanic to Rengar is basically saying that Rengar's play, and Rengar's play alone is the deciding factor in the outcome.

What I mean by this is that if he goes in to a fight with stealth, and then has the choice to stealth away if it's going poorly, or stealth in for MORE chasing potential - the opponent is left with absolutely zero things they can do to affect the outcome of the engagement apart from ALWAYS carrying a pink ward or upgrading to an oracle's lens.

I don't understand why a mechanic like this would be considered when the entire company is against removing counterplay. Could you explain how, from Rengar's target's point of view, this change gives both themselves and Rengar the opportunity to show their skill in the engagement?


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Gangplankstlye

Junior Member

02-15-2014

Since trinket is responsible for vision, is it a good idea to shift the visibility of enemy from ultimate to trinket?
like there is a few paths for upgrading the trinket and each paths give vision on enemy in different way or only one of the path give vision on enemy during ultimate and give other bonus effect on rengar's ultimate. or even give him some other active in stead of just passive.
it will be kind of trade off between utility or other offensive or defensive effect on the latter option. what i am think is that one of the effect can be the the re-stealth that you have mentioned.
shifting some power to the trinket will make people think that it is actually important/ necessary to update trinket.

Here is my idea how his necklace trinket should be:
i will keep his necklace has the all default actives of all trinkets which are ward totem , sweeping lens and scrying orb. He can still decide to choose one of the actives at level one. The main difference is that it gives bonus effect at the level 9 upgrade. it gives the normal effect which he can see all enemy around after stealth on the ward totem upgrade. it gives second stealth for the sweeping lens upgrade and possibly give him the invisibility when pass though enemy's ward (not pink). It gives the second active after he used the scrying orb after he upgrade it. the second active is to put a mark on an enemy for a minute ( the range is about lux's ultimate but a little bit shorter.). the mark give vision only on target when during the ultimate and do bonus damage to the target or increase his movement speed or other alternate buff to him.( this is effective when laning, detected enemy with orb and efficient of vision in the map) I am not sure if it shows to the target that he is marked by rengar or not considering that it is hard to spot your intended target especially in the jungle. the effect stick to rengar for the rest of the game once he upgrade it so that they have to think before upgrade it.
in term of risk:
sweeping lens < ward totem < scrying orb
two stealthes is obviously the safest chose but you cant really jump unless you have vision on them
give vision to all enemy around you can at least get to know what people around your target.
but scrying orb does not give vision to anything other than the target.


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lm Krueger ml

Senior Member

02-15-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddess Din View Post
The issue I have with this is that everybody at Riot is always talking about how they want to make sure the enemy to whatever-champion-is-being-reworked has the opportunity for counterplay in order to out play their opponent. Adding this re-stealth mechanic to Rengar is basically saying that Rengar's play, and Rengar's play alone is the deciding factor in the outcome.

What I mean by this is that if he goes in to a fight with stealth, and then has the choice to stealth away if it's going poorly, or stealth in for MORE chasing potential - the opponent is left with absolutely zero things they can do to affect the outcome of the engagement apart from ALWAYS carrying a pink ward or upgrading to an oracle's lens.

I don't understand why a mechanic like this would be considered when the entire company is against removing counterplay. Could you explain how, from Rengar's target's point of view, this change gives both themselves and Rengar the opportunity to show their skill in the engagement?
Im actually more worried about the opposite scenario. There is such an obvious window of vulnerability that the second Rengar leaves stealth, he will draw an insane amount of aggro because the whole world knows he has 5 seconds totally exposed before he can leave the fight.

The best use of this Ultimate in teamfights now appears to be to use it halfway through the fight. You engage from brush or with E in a flank, attack and start the Q train. As soon as they try to focus you, stealth, reposition and re-engage. The fight is then close to its end when you re-enter stealth.

This would mean his stealth needs to activate instantly though and I'm not sure if thats been changed. If he has to engage with his Ult he becomes far too predictable and easy to counter IMO.


As a side note. The more I think about it the more I'm ok with a timed stealth. However, you absolutely need a very clear timer on the UI somewhere. I want to know the precise second my stealth will activate to avoid accidentally blowing it instantly with a skill.


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Ghoul The Dark

Senior Member

02-15-2014

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com....php?t=4282709
PLeasee check it out if I can't bump it next time your around.


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50West

Senior Member

02-15-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Originally we had the second stealth trigger on kill, but we quickly shifted it to a set time because we think it actually allows for some more interesting situations. We want it to be possible for Rengar to go in, not get a kill, then leave if he thinks the fight is going poorly. Alternatively, he could decide to all in with the second leap and trade his life for a kill in some situations. The fixed window has more general usage that doesn't revolve around Rengar being ahead.
I think this is very toxic to gameplay and counter-intuitive to the purpose and gameplay styles of the assassin role. Why should an all-in assassin get a free second stealth / jump out of the fight even if he doesn't fulfill his purpose? You're pretty much saying "Rengar isn't really an assassin now, as you can jump into the back line anytime you want, and if you really don't know how to play assassins (nor care to learn) and screw up it really doesn't matter; just get a free second stealth for not accomplishing your goal and jump out - no harm done."

The point being that his role is an assassin. Like all other assassins, he should have to pick and choose a precise moment when he can jump into battle. Hell, he still even has it easier than most other assassins since he has a stealth. I think a free stealth is an absolutely terrible idea and it rewards bad assassin play or those that don't even care to learn the assassin role.


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RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-15-2014
29 of 48 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddess Din View Post
The issue I have with this is that everybody at Riot is always talking about how they want to make sure the enemy to whatever-champion-is-being-reworked has the opportunity for counterplay in order to out play their opponent. Adding this re-stealth mechanic to Rengar is basically saying that Rengar's play, and Rengar's play alone is the deciding factor in the outcome.

What I mean by this is that if he goes in to a fight with stealth, and then has the choice to stealth away if it's going poorly, or stealth in for MORE chasing potential - the opponent is left with absolutely zero things they can do to affect the outcome of the engagement apart from ALWAYS carrying a pink ward or upgrading to an oracle's lens.

I don't understand why a mechanic like this would be considered when the entire company is against removing counterplay. Could you explain how, from Rengar's target's point of view, this change gives both themselves and Rengar the opportunity to show their skill in the engagement?
This is a good point, but the goal (maybe not there yet) is that because Rengar has to expose himself and fight for ~5 seconds (current numbers not final), there is plenty of time for the enemy team to kill, CC or kite him. This ultimate does give him a big power spike, but that is generally the point. If it turns out that there is nothing an opponent can do to react to this skill, we probably did something wrong.


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NauticalPhoenix

Member

02-15-2014

I hate all of it except for the changes to his E.