Skarner Rework Follow Through

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OGZ Poptart Cat

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Senior Member

02-14-2014

Now that he got used in LCS did you see where diamond struggled compared to other junglers? Did you see the issues he was having?

By removing slow on Q you essentially removed the sync in his ult. His kit just doesn't fit together properly. They made a comp with warwick so warwick would ult then diamond would use skarner ult to follow up but there was no gameplay after the ult ended. What is skarner suppose to be now? I played skarner only for the aoe slow on Q. You removed that, so what is he suppose to do now?


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wapster

Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
If there is no way for an opponent to possibly win against a character in a fight, at that point the game is effectively over. Allowing for both players to determine if a fight is won or lost is a core element to skill based competitive games. Items can give advantage to the winning player but there should always be some chance for the behind player to win.

We haven't succeeded in creating this balance with all characters but this is what we are trying to move towards.
WHY DONT YOU RESPOND TO SKARNER FEEDBACK??

JESUS CHRlST WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!?!


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Foztog

Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
If there is no way for an opponent to possibly win against a character in a fight, at that point the game is effectively over. Allowing for both players to determine if a fight is won or lost is a core element to skill based competitive games. Items can give advantage to the winning player but there should always be some chance for the behind player to win.

We haven't succeeded in creating this balance with all characters but this is what we are trying to move towards.
Yes, there should be SOME chance. A very SLIM chance that an unfed Annie should be able to beat out a fed Lee Sin.

That said, what does this have to do with you cannabalizing our favorite Scorpion?


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by NUTCRAKKO View Post
Honestly, that's an awesome name. I wanna play a hero named Batrider. Not Caitlyn or Annie. I hear "Batrider" and I wanna look him up. I hear "Caitlyn" and I'm like...my ex?
I do like the more personal names of League for the most part. They can do a bit to bring the champions closer to the players.

But they probably shouldn't sacrifice humor or differentiation for it.

Like Syndra/Zyra are just made of blandness and repeat mechanics.

Whereas Vayne is pretty stand-out in mechanics and aesthetics.

Although while Batrider is pretty hilarious, some names like "Shadow Fiend" and "Drow" may be a little meh.


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Vacus

Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
If there is no way for an opponent to possibly win against a character in a fight, at that point the game is effectively over. Allowing for both players to determine if a fight is won or lost is a core element to skill based competitive games. Items can give advantage to the winning player but there should always be some chance for the behind player to win.

We haven't succeeded in creating this balance with all characters but this is what we are trying to move towards.
Your statement is provably false.

You can splitpush and draw the fed guy away, then win 4v4 and outpush him.

You can catch him alone and take him out 1v5.

You can defend with a lone splitpusher/outright BD champ (everyone has that one game where Yi single-handedly won the game while the other 4 defended).

You can take objectives around the map where he isn't in order to catch up in gold.

You can waveclear inside your base and stall to catch up in gold.

There are a massive number of options available to a team who cannot win straight up 5v5 fights. And if your comp is better for teamfights or you get a good pick or you just get a very clean engage, you can win 5v5 fights despite the fact that every member of your team would lose a 1v1. It is absolutely not necessary to always have a chance in 1v1 in order to have a chance at winning the game, and the thought that 1v1 needs to always be balanced regardless of prior advantage is a poisonous thought that leads nowhere good.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
We haven't succeeded in creating this balance with all characters but this is what we are trying to move towards.
Feed the Marksman. Protect the Marksman.

Your first step is probably balancing the game such that there is more than one kind of lategame carry, and lanes aren't mirror matches.

Reduce the power of ranged poke, reduce the power of towers to shut down aggression, reduce the tanky DPS snowball.

Just go ask Guinsoo how to do it, since he demonstrably did in TWO ultra-successful games.

(I mean, I hope Guinsoo is aware of how to make multiple archetypes and laning strategies viable. Maybe.)


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lightingsky

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Member

02-14-2014

Since you just gave Skarner a rework because u believe that his permanent slow make other players feel very frustrating. So I am pretty sure that u will agree with me that Teemo’s mushroom also needs a rework.

Although Teemo is a very popular champion unlike the old Skarner and the new one. But it does not means he won’t needs a rework considering Skarner was also popular in S2 and people did not have any problem with him. So I am just telling u the hidden danger of Teemo, so u can give him a rework now instead of waiting until he become an unpopular champion, even though this problem may not be the reason he become unpopular.

Killed by a mushroom can be one of the most frustrating things in LOL. In late game, an AP Teemo can kill an AD carry with only two mushroom. Can u imagine it? “I need the red buff” BOOM! Half HP. “Now I have to back” BOOM! GG. It makes people feel so frustrating, just like the old skarner. Can u imagine it? “Dat skarner’s short range slow is permanent after he cost few seconds to apply an empowered Q on me, I don’t even have a chance to escape if I don’t have any flash/reposition/stun/slow/dash/wardjump ability. It is so fking frustrating”

And after the removing of Oracle’s Elixir, get killed by a mushroom become much easier. Even after S3, Skarner’s clear camp ability got nerfed, he still can be reworked. So for Teemo, whose mushroom get buffed in S4, is there any reason to not give him a rework?


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RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-14-2014
13 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by NUTCRAKKO View Post
Yes, there should be SOME chance. A very SLIM chance that an unfed Annie should be able to beat out a fed Lee Sin.

That said, what does this have to do with you cannabalizing our favorite Scorpion?
It relates to the mechanics of Skarners old q that gave him fewer ways to fight from behind and his opponents fewer options to fight him with when he was ahead.

That said I do think we have shifted his power away from cc into more reliable dps which is not strengthening the fantasy for his core players.


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lightingsky

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02-14-2014

Since you just gave Skarner a rework, I am pretty sure Nautilus also needs a rework.

First, Nautilus' popularity is very low, no many people play him, just like the old skarner; oh, and the new one.
Second, since you believe that the old Skarner's permanent slow has to be removed because it make other player feel frustrating. I think you will also believe that Nautilus' abilities make players feel even more frustrating.
Why? When I get ganked by a Skarner, I can use my abilities to move away before his empowered Q apply on me, u know, it takes a while for him to empower his Q and apply the second one on me. If he gets to close, I can also use my flash even after he uses his ult, u know, his ult's animation is pretty long, even after the rework, its still possible to "dodge" it. So that motherXXXXer cannot even touch me.

But when I get ganked by a Nautilus, things will be totally different. I tried to escape by using my E, I was a mid lane fizz who never get killed by Skarner btw. But he used his Q and grabbed me back, then he used his passive to root me for 1.5s, it was not over yet, he also used his E to slow me for 2 second. At the moment I was like 1/3 HP, so I decided to use my flash. But after saw me flashed, he decided to use his ult which stun me for another 2s. And I was dead after that.

I felt so frustrating, that combination of stun/slow/root did not even give me a chance to escape. I thought it was just because I suck, I need to improve my skill, so I can do better next time, like better positioning. But after reading Skarner's rework, I realized it was not only my problem, but this champion's problem. He makes other players like me feel so frustrating, even more the old Skarner. So, obviously he needs a rework, I am just pointing this problem out for you guys, in case you guys are too busy to realize such problems, like the server's stability.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
That said I do think we have shifted his power away from cc into more reliable dps which is not strengthening the fantasy for his core players.
How soon do you believe you can get a version of Skarner with more CC on the PBE for testing?

Can we have a fast interactive iteration cycle on reworks?