Skarner Rework Follow Through

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Maulkrieg

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Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
In the case of assassins, we are actively working to not make it the case that when an assassin jumps on you, the determining factor for the win is items not skill (looking at you kassadin).

I don't think anyone thinks slows are toxic, the design philosophy is that when both players have the opportunity to make plays and change a fight it results in more engaging fights and a more skill based game overall.
This is what I'm talking about Scruffy! Real interaction!

What about comparing Skarner to champions like Mundo, Nunu, Olaf, Zilean, etc who have spammable slows from range?

Is there any way you could give him a spammable slow without the need for his passive, while not making it overbearing with his passive, obviously allowing more counterplay than prerework so likely around some E interaction?


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

02-14-2014

Mundo (arguably) has counterplay in the form of dodging his slow or hiding behind something that doesn't matter if it gets slowed. Zilean is scheduled for a rework, and Olaf has similar counterplay to Mundo (with the additional position game of baiting him to mis-throw the axe so he can't get it back).


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Crunk

Senior Member

02-14-2014

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Originally Posted by Crunk View Post
what if Skarner got a .5sec root if he landed an autoattack or q after the E?
the reason I think a root would be good is that it provides the laner a clear target for their skillshots during the root. And if he landed E on multiple targets he could get a miniature nautilus root with it later on in teamfights, giving him something to do that isn't just ulting the closest carry

EDIT: in addition the target could be immune to a second root from skarner for some arbitrary amount of time, similar to nautilus passive or udyr's stun stance


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Siigari

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02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
The winner of fights often revolved around who had more items, not who made the better plays.
lol really? Interesting concept, someone who is fed is going to do better than someone who isn't. Stop hand-holding. There NEEDS TO BE PENALTIES FOR POOR PLAY.


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Maulkrieg

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02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
Mundo (arguably) has counterplay in the form of dodging his slow or hiding behind something that doesn't matter if it gets slowed. Zilean is scheduled for a rework, and Olaf has similar counterplay to Mundo (with the additional position game of baiting him to mis-throw the axe so he can't get it back).
Dodging the easiest, most spammable skill shot in the game? He even has the back-up measure of just waltzing up to you with his ult if his manages to miss 3 times and throw a point blank cleaver, which is near guaranteed to land.

On that Olaf 'baiting' note, you could easily bait Skarner into over-extending. He had to be aggressively forward to keep slowing you, which is easily punished.



Anyway, back on topic:
What if Skarner's Q only slowed while W was up? You could prevent him permaslowing by destroying the shield.

Make E a much weaker slow that simply allows him to close the gap.


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Crunk

Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siigari View Post
lol really? Interesting concept, someone who is fed is going to do better than someone who isn't. Stop hand-holding. There NEEDS TO BE PENALTIES FOR POOR PLAY.
but that's the point... people with items can play carelessly because their poor play after getting items isn't punished


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Vlaadokash

Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlaadokash View Post
@RiotScruffy

Okay, I hope you read this because, as a Skarner player, I would like some clarification. This is not an attack so please do not take it as one. There seems to be a disconnect here. I will not go into specific abilities in this post but will address them after a response is made because I do not want to overload nor derail this post.



When you say "we are very excited..." and "we are very pleased with the rework..." who is the "we"? Is it Riot as a whole? Is it you and the others on your team who worked on the rework? I would ask "is it the players?" but the dozens of threads and comments made by high-level Skarner mains seem to dispute this claim


When you say "now that the rework is done we can tune Skarners power levels" why couldnt you before? Do you feel it is a better policy to rework a champion first and tune abilities second than it is to try to tune existing abilities first and rework second?


Why do Rioters use terms like "toxic" and "unfun" to describe champions? Isnt that the wrong way to go? I know it is a simplistic view but isnt killing/winning always fun and dieing/losing unfun? "Toxic" should never be used to describe a champion. Players are toxic, champions are not. There was never anything toxic about Skarner pre-rework and there is nothing toxic about "Skarner" now.


How was Skarner not able to display his full skill and did he, as a champion, deny his opponents this as well? I really dont see how this statement is anything more than propaganda. Where has there ever been evidence this is true?


When you say "reduce feast/famine..." what do you mean? Are there not other champions who have abrupt power curves? Is it not true that any champion can carry when fed and be inconsequential when denied? Are there not other champions specifically designed to have weak early, strong late playstyles? Vice versa?


When you say "clearly defined windows of power" was that not true pre-rework? Wasnt it always true that if Skarner could reach his target then he could succeed but he suffered the risk of being poked, CC'd, or kited before he could do so? Is that not a defined window of power? A risk/reward? Didnt that propagate the interaction you are talking about now?


and one last point....


Is it Riots policy to purposely nerf a champion in some regard to force a rework, only to revert the changes post-rework? Yes I am specifically talking about the ultimate change. Is that not what actually spiraled Skarner into "trash tier" status and everything else about his pick/ban, win/loss rates, to be VERY clear, "Talking points."? Maybe this is too harsh of a line of questions but its how the direction Riot has taken seems to me. I really hope I am wrong on this.



Thank you. I appreciate the time you are taking to address the community

Thank you RiotScruffy for acknowledging posts in this thread. Can you please respond to this post I made on page 29? Thank you


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Siigari

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02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunk View Post
but that's the point... people with items can play carelessly because their poor play after getting items isn't punished
That's not true. If I make a mistake when I'm fed, I have given an allowance (however so slight) because I did work earlier that got me ahead. If the other team is consistently better then they will win.

We can argue game theory all day. How about we remove bans from ranked, we'll see who we really need to complain about then, huh?


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DarkflameShyvana

Senior Member

02-14-2014

I have a suggestion:

How about lowering the MS % boost on his W by a small amount, and then giving his Q stacks a certain amount of flat MS (maybe something like 5/6/7/8/9/10 which stacks to 15/18/21/24/27/30, just as a rough idea).

This makes him much 'stickier' which is different to a perma-slow, but allows him to keep up with his prey in a different manner.

Also, he really needs a one point wonder, currently there's too many things you need points in to make significant and his early is very tough on him for that reason.

I hope you check this out Scruffy, and I appreciate your efforts.


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Maulkrieg

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Senior Member

02-14-2014

On the "whoever had more items wins" part of this discussion, Scruffy...with ADCs, whoever had more items wins in a 1v1.

Midlane/support is arguably the only case where skill starts to take a bit more precedence than items.

That's just how this game works.

If Renekton has THE SAME or more items as me top lane, he's very, very, very likely to win.

Same with Lee Sin. Are they all of a sudden not issues?