Skarner Rework Follow Through

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Siigari

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Senior Member

02-14-2014

I have a feeling this is going to become the norm with the Skarner rework:

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Ablu2

Member

02-14-2014

What I loved about Skarner back when he was viable was how he could build a Triforce, a couple tank items, and be an invincible doom machine, and it seems like the rework did nothing to restore him to that status.


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Maulkrieg

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Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellioning View Post
That sounds about good, though it'll have to be a really strong slow to consider playing him in a game with Elise or Vi in it.
Too many people have ground-targeted gapclosers to escape with. He needs a more spammable slow or MS boost if he's going to be relevant in the games with no non-ult hard CC anyway, even if its not a permaslow/permaspeed.

The new W is going to make this an even bigger issue with him since it has to ramp up.


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NovaSpectre

Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ablu2 View Post
What I loved about Skarner back when he was viable was how he could build a Triforce, a couple tank items, and be an invincible doom machine, and it seems like the rework did nothing to restore him to that status.
I don't even know what to build on Skarner anymore. Do I go AP and try to take advantage of his AP scaling, do I go off-tank, hybrid, AD? I'm confused... I need to go play test this more. I think there's something here, I really do, but I just don't know what.


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Maulkrieg

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Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by NovaSpectre View Post
I don't even know what to build on Skarner anymore. Do I go AP and try to take advantage of his AP scaling, do I go off-tank, hybrid, AD? I'm confused... I need to go play test this more. I think there's something here, I really do, but I just don't know what.
It doesn't matter what you do. If you don't have a slowing item, you're useless.

That's a pretty big issue. You have to spend ~3k gold to be where you were before pre-rework. That's not even considering the slew of big hits he took with the rework as well.


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RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-14-2014
9 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman Fizz View Post
What I'd imagine after those changes (if you include the mana cost reductions) would be:

-He'll have a better skill to leave at one point (E obviously) so he doesn't feel as weak until he's leveled all 3 of them
-His W will still feel underwhelming. Even if it's numerically balanced, the slow ramp up will make it feel weaker than it really is to the person playing him. I think the ramp up time should either be made quicker, made to go in the opposite direction (getting slower over time) or just completely removed in favor of a flat movespeed boost so that the ability feels more satisfying for the person playing as him.
-Without access to more long term CC than only his E which has a long cooldown, he will still be missing a major part of his identity. I understand you think his perma slow on Q was toxic (which I don't agree with), but it was still one of the biggest things that made Skarner feel like Skarner, without something similar to that he won't feel like the same champion anymore. This absolutely needs to be fixed if you want old Skarner players to feel happy about the rework.
-In lane, he still has not been compensated for losing his heal. Please do not forget about his ability to lane when making your changes.


I have some questions, if you could answer any of them I'd really appreciate it:

-What about the slow on his Q made it toxic? Why was it considered bad for him to have this in his kit when other forms of long lasting slows like Red Buff, Frozen Mallet, Frost Shot, etc. also exist?
-How does his win rate with Smite compare to his win rate without it (or more specifically, as a jungler compared to as a laner)? Do the two win rates change at different rates as rating goes up?
-Have you thought about keeping the mark his E used to apply, but possibly adding some other sort of effect (example: Hitting someone with the mark on them could extend the slow for a bit longer)?
To answer your questions:
-Yes getting permanently slowed by his Q was frustrating to play against, but there are actually other gains that we were trying to achieve with the change.

Permanent slow in melee range often only created two situations for Skarner, the case where he catches someone and they can never escape and the case where he can't ever engage on his target. The winner of fights often revolved around who had more items, not who made the better plays. We hope to create more situations where Skarner catches a target in the first place, but more opportunity for escape one the target has been caught.

-I don't have the lane vs jungle data yet, but I will definitely see if there is a significant discrepancy for his lane case

-The mark with E and hit for a longer slow is a reasonable idea, but in that case we would probably just make the E slow last longer baseline to reduce the mechanics clutter.


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Crunk

Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
This has been very useful feedback and looking at early data suggests that he's struggling much more in the early game than the late game. I'm tentatively looking to put together some changes for next patch:

-E missile width increase
-E slow values increased (especially at low ranks)
-Maybe mana cost improvements

A few things about these changes:
-We don't want to over buff him and have to nerf him again in the future, so keep that in mind.
-We want to make E a much better 1 point ability to help his early ganks
-We want to generally increase the CC payoff for hitting the E because of the difficulty/risk of landing it

These changes aren't final so please share your feedback.

-Scruffy
I like making E a "one point wonder" for jungle skarner. Few champs have to max their CC out of the jungle, that's normally a support path.


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Sir Clint

Junior Member

02-14-2014

Or you could up the speed buff his W gives him?

That would be equal.

Sir Clint


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

02-14-2014

I like those proposed changes. I actually still strongly think the cast time should go away or the missile speed should increase, either instead of those changes or in addition to some.


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Maulkrieg

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Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
To answer your questions:
-Yes getting permanently slowed by his Q was frustrating to play against, but there are actually other gains that we were trying to achieve with the change.

Permanent slow in melee range often only created two situations for Skarner, the case where he catches someone and they can never escape and the case where he can't ever engage on his target. The winner of fights often revolved around who had more items, not who made the better plays. We hope to create more situations where Skarner catches a target in the first place, but more opportunity for escape one the target has been caught.

-I don't have the lane vs jungle data yet, but I will definitely see if there is a significant discrepancy for his lane case

-The mark with E and hit for a longer slow is a reasonable idea, but in that case we would probably just make the E slow last longer baseline to reduce the mechanics clutter.
Against assassins, whoever has more items wins, not whoever made the better plays. How are slows more toxic? At least your team has time to respond with slows.

Explain pls

Btw, THANK YOU SCRUFFY. YOU FINALLY PERSONALLY ACKNOWLEDGED AN IDEA. I believe that the secondary CC should be a brief hard CC though. You'll never have time to reach 3 Q stacks even with that secondary effect as hard CC.